I have been called racist. I want to argue my case against this charge in very precise, pedantic terms - so here I am.

[monkeytrousers]

Mehdismummy, please tell me why I am a racist?

Mehdismummy, do you really think that any criticism of any aspect of your religion, or of any behaviour done in the name of your religion, is a racist attack on you? I have met many religious people who are kind, honest, decent and intelligent despite the fact that they believe in invisible thingys and practice strange rituals: however I have also encountered horrible people who do horrible things in the name of their invisible friend in the sky. Many religious people disagree with and openly condemn certain practices engaged in by other people who share, at least nominally, their religious belief: if an otherwise observant Jewish man states that he thinks circumcision is barbaric and he won't permit it to be done to his son does that make him an anti-semite, or just someone who has a different opinion?

This is extraordinary. My views on circumcision not relevant here and anyway articulated earlier (and better) by others. But would like to say I think you did the right thing MT to try to sort it out -- have read the comments on the original thread and they don't read racist to me. That one must have really jumped up and bit you.

Just for the record, male circumcision is/was carried out as a matter of routine in countries such as NZ, Australia, USA and is not connected to any relgious beliefs afaik

What madamez said. My dp is Jewish (non-practising) and circumcised, but we haven't, and won't, circumcise our DSs. That doesn't make him (or me) and anti-semite, IMO. We simply disagree with the practice.

can i just point out that i stated i used the wrong word by using racist. And i was not referring to the thread about cutting boys thingys. And i am not muslim. I dont believe in a god as such. My h is muslim and so is our son. Before ds was born i went to a mosque and spoke at length with an iman because i was having a rough time with dh and dv. He helped me a great deal and told me and i might add showed me the koran and how allah in fact thinks that women should be in fact treasured. I had a real long think about letting ds have the op. But in the end i had it done because he was having an op down there anyway. I personally think that its a good thing we have many different religions and opinions as the world would be boring place otherwise.i just think mt likes to make comments to stir up an argument. I would actually like her to come to a mosque with me and actually debate this with someone more informed than me.

midnight if your dp was practising and he felt strongly about having it done would you do it? Is he angry his parents did it to him?

Message withdrawn

ok good point. It just upsets me to think it is as thought that i would ds just for religion purposes. You know my life is crap with dh and how is he. I did not enter the decision lightly. But i found out the facts first and wanted to respect his religion. Not him. His religion. And do you know what i do respect his religion because i have read the koran and spoken to many muslims about it

LOL that arguing against stuff like this makes you racist

I'd get done for every single essay i submit then wouldn't I, given I am studying world religion and there's a lot of cultural / analytical stuff?

Obv. male circumcision is connected tor eligious beliefs- it's the sign of the covenant for Jewish men for a start the rape fo Dinah being quite heavily focussed as a story on that)- but its not wholly attributable to any one religion, or culture, and commonly practised in some countries for hygiene reasons.

MT is, in my experience, a very intelligent thoughtful woman who is anything but racist

Message withdrawn

"it's a thorney issue. i am with you monkey, but you have to be very sensitive about how you approach this.
my opinion on this was informed by a jewish boyfriend that hated his parents for having him circumcised. it makes masturbation more difficult.
By PaulaYatesBiggestFan on Mon 03-Mar-08 22:32:54 "

Hmm,
I am not jewish but I have been circumcised and I can tell you that the man in question clearly knew nothing about masturabation......!!
How can people come out with such tosh, he just sounds like some kind of attention seeker, there are plenty of them around.

(missed Mehdismummy last post as was at door / typing etc)

The Qur'an is indeed a good book for all to read, and not half as 'scary' as soem poeple seem to think. Do what feels right for you, at teh end of the day I think, and don't let anyone elses opinion bother you.

thanks pela. I will say it again and again i used the wrong word by using racist. Off to call someone short now when they are in fact tall!! I dont regret having ds done. I do regret getting into this now. Gotta go and get the sack now

omg gordonramsay. I love you x

mehdismummy - you can call me thin if it makes you feel better

masturbation

tbh i think folk who beive in god must be utterly uinhinged,, i mena you dont belive itn eh tooth fairy do you?

or do you?

lol Gordon, I think my dh would agree with you on that one

This argument that we must respect everyone?s cultures/beliefs/religions and that saying anything against the practices of these cultures/religions is disrespectful makes me very .

I?ve read countless threads on here about ear piercing for instance where people have said ?ah but in some cultures they do it?? so? Does it matter whether the reasons are cultural/for vanity reasons? - it?s still child abuce IMO, just because it?s done in the name of culture doesn?t duddenly make it ok.

Similarly with arranged marriages/honour killings ? should we not speak out against them because we would be insulting someone?s culture?

And what of the woman in Saudi Arabia who recently received lashes for committing adultery when in actual fact she?d been raped? But because she was married she had disrespected her husband and therefore she was the one at fault .
Imo by not speaking out against these practices we are actually condoning them, and I would rather be considered to be anti religion/culture/whatever than to be seen to be agreeing with such barbaric practices.

wannaBe is right

You can respect the individuals right to follow the faith of their choice (as long as it doesn't impinge on others) certainly, but religion NEEDS to be questioned- constantly!

Interesting reading matter MT.

"western civilisation ? with its extraordinary ability to create wealth and culture while promoting freedom, equality and democracy"

That would be the western civilisation that has the extraordinary ability to increase the temperature of the entire planet
and extraordinary ability to create weapons capable of killing 1000s of people at a time
and the extraordinary ability to put guns in the hands of teenagers to kill their schoolmates
and the extraordinary ability to post pictures of children being abused onto the internet for millions of people to see

not saying that other systems are perfect, but don't think western -capitalism-democracy is so perfect either

"western civilisation ? with its extraordinary ability to create wealth and culture while promoting freedom, equality and democracy"

• a little bit rose tinted specs that quote, MT? Don't you think?

I personally think anything which is done without a person's consent (as long as on non-medical grounds and within reason)is wrong and in the case of children, they are unable to give consent therefore it may go against human rights.

As parents we all make decisions on behalf of our children every day but when it comes to any 'remodelling' of body parts I am against it.

I hasten to add that mine is a personal opinion but I don't think to be against circumcision/ ear piercing etc makes me racist

Posted before reading choccypig's contribution - she's encapsulated what I was thinking (but am too lazy to type )

IMO those comments were not racist. FWIW.