Impossible adult daughter still at home

[Worldwearygardener]

My daughter is 25 years old and still lives at home with us. We are retired. She has never had a proper job as she cannot decide on a career that would suit her. We paid for her tuition fees and rent/living fees when she was at university so she has no debt. She works periodically but keeps all the money for herself and never offers to contribute financially to the household in any way.
She does cook meals for the family but always at a time that suits her so it’s often closer to 9 o’clock than 8 o’clock - even though we’d prefer to eat around 7.30pm. If we ask her what time dinner is going to be, she gets very angry and will not tell us. Apart from meal preparation and online food shopping, she does little in the way of household chores.
Our daughter’s love is theatre and we have always supported her fully with this hobby. She doesn’t drive so we take her back and forth to rehearsals and encourage all our friends to see anything she is in. We have not paid for driving lessons as she seems to have no appreciation of her own safety. She goes running in dark, deserted areas whilst wearing headphones - despite us telling her how dangerous that is. Even crossing roads, she expects the cars to stop for her. She doesn’t like to follow rules and doesn’t seem to understand that some rules are put in place to protect her and other people.
Every morning, she takes her breakfast back to bed and regularly stays there until after midday. She will then stay up until the early hours of the morning, usually sitting at the family computer.
In addition to this, our daughter is regularly rude and condescending when interacting with me but is verbally (and occasionally physically) cruel to her father and the two of them rarely speak. This makes him both sad and angry and he takes his anger out on me.
Our daughter has always been very controlling but also volatile. We spend our daily lives treading on eggshells so that we don’t make her angry. I learned very early on that punishing our daughter didn’t work. There was no point in putting her on the “naughty step” as she would never understand that she had done anything wrong. I think she did, and still does, consider me a little unhinged and petty. Taking away any privileges just made her angry with me, it did not encourage her to behave properly.
Our daughter could not enjoy school as she could not respond to discipline and saw little benefit in a good education.
There is no point in trying to discuss all of these issues with her as she refuses to talk through the problems. She flounces away and then there is a horrible atmosphere in the house and nothing is ever resolved.
Our daughter willingly admits that she doesn’t like people although she has a few friends she has made through her drama society.
She struggles to engage in regular conversations unless, again, it is theatre related.
The obvious answer is that she should find a full time job and rent a room somewhere before our relationship with her is ruined completely. However, we love our daughter very much and don’t want to make her life completely miserable. In any case, she could not share a house with people as she demands the kitchen to herself and has some OCD issues.
Any suggestions and advice would be gratefully received.

You don’t need to “threaten” anything. Your approach could be “DD things are just not working for us now and we are concerned that without anything changing your life opportunities will become limited. We think it’s time you looked at living independently and settling into regular employment. While you are looking for permanent work you can claim universal credit and this will help you pay rent for your own place until you get settled. Let’s give it a month for you to get things moving and have another chat then”

But you’ve got to really mean it and follow through. Your recent post makes all sorts of assumptions about her, you are projecting your own fears and experience on her. We all worry about our kids’ safety in cars and otherwise (it’s a given as a parent!) but, as the cliche goes, we feel the fear and do it anyway. If we didn’t no one would ever leave home!!

As for learning to drive I think most parents who are able do pay for their kids to learn to drive especially in circumstances where there are limited public transport options. If this is an option for you financially I’d say it’s a great investment in her (and your) future.

One thing is for sure - you deserve to put your own happiness first at this stage of life, and nothing will change unless something changes

Thank you but I don’t think that conversation will work because what am I supposed to do if she just ignores such suggestions -
and that’s exactly what she does? I can’t physically evict her and certainly have no intention of getting the police involved in this domestic matter.
My son drives so I understand the point you’re making but encouraging someone to drive, who would probably remain unsafe, would be madness. A lot of my family are non-drivers. Only if you knew her would you understand that it would not be a good skill for her to try to master, not for her or for other road users. Not everyone is cut out for the road, unfortunately. Plus imagine how much it would cost to get her through a test. I would have to sell the family home to fund it.
I don’t think I’m getting any new advice so let’s stop it here. I can’t evict her, I can’t force her to see a doctor, I won’t encourage her to drive so I’ll look for other ways to help her and hopefully find a way out of this that doesn’t cause either of us go crazy. The friend I saw yesterday assured me that “something will come up” and I’ll just have to hope she’s right. There are bigger problems in the world than having a defiant daughter but I wanted to hear other people’s thoughts on the off chance someone had an answer for me.

I think it would really help if you could reframe your thinking around your daughter. You seem to compare her unfavorably to your son as he's "easier".

The positives: she's got good academic qualifications, can cook, can take care of the house competently in your absence, keeps fit, acts to a level where people are happy to cast her and come to see her and is passionate about it and she can work, even if not consistently.

There's a lot to work with there. You will probably need to apply some money to get her out of your house, whether that be helping her rent or buy somewhere, or paying some bills or for retraing while she moves into work. "But OP shouldn't have to!" chorus the Mumsnetters.

But how much do you want her gone OP?

Cooking, cleaning, admin - these are things that people pay for even if not generously.

I write as the sister of a woman (probably with additional needs, looking back) who needed a lot of support in her 20s and 30s but she finally got there. My parents bought her a flat and still underwrite her lifestyle to an extent. But she's two hours away!

I also thought (as your DD may do) that I was going to have a career in the arts, but I did grow out of it eventually. Very few people make it big and nearly everyone has to teach in the end - not that there's anything wrong with that.

I agree with another user, it would really help to reframe your thinking.

I am autistic and have ADHD and I see so much of myself in your daughter. Of course she not be autistic, we're only seeing a glimpse here but much of what you've described really matches the diagnostic criteria for autism. Quite often, when women are struggling (especially when undiagnosed), the issues they have are seen as bad behaviour or moral failings because they are typically aligned with things we unconsciously expect women to be able to do. There's often also an internalised ablism in parents of undiagnosed ND children because their parents are potentially undiagnosed too and they may not even realise it so they thinks ell I coped and everyone else does so you should too.

Whilst your daughter may not want to speak to a doctor, I think it would be really beneficial to research autism in women and approach her saying you love her, you care about her happiness and then chat about what you've found. Don't position it that you're trying to fix her, make sure it feels supportive and because you want the best for her in life. She hopefully will be relieved as do many women when they realise it - I cried the first time I read the symptoms of ADHD and how they display in teenage girls instead of boys, it was like I suddenly wasn't broken, there was an explanation for why I was struggling.
Please also know that I don't say that I think she's potentially autistic because of attitude or anger/rudeness, there were specific things you listed such as struggling to hold a conversation outside her special interest, struggling to deviate from routine even if it's better for others, struggling with questions etc.. These are examples, particularly as this is something she's struggled with from childhood.

You sound defeated and therefore defensive Worldweary. You also don’t mention any support (or otherwise) from your husband. If you present a united front and spell out what WILL happen (as opposed to options) and a timeframe and be willing to follow through (and yes you can evict her if that’s what you want) you can make things happen. Your responses indicate you are not willing to grasp this particular nettle because of what you THINK might happen. As I and others have said - you need to allow her to mess up. It’s what we all have to face at this stage. Again, nothing changes unless something changes.

Aw @Nn9011 I hope you are doing better now!

My poor sister did really blame herself for her "failure to launch" and my parents were both quite baffled about it, but since my own daughter was diagnosed with ADHD and ASD I have definitely viewed my dad and also my husband with new eyes [I kind of 'married my dad' I guess in the sense of the behaviours seemed normal to me] ...yes they both "coped" but tbh they had a small army of women around them making sure that they did.

Women rarely get that.

Oh my goodness, I see a lot of my younger self in your daughter.

My parents were enablers and never gave us any boundaries because they hated confrontation and it did make me quite entitled and spoilt as I floundered in finding independence in my 20s. Like you they didn't really know what to do.

What worked for me was tough love tbh. I had to just survive and get on with it, it's been a long road to maturity & functioning adulthood but I look back quite ashamed at how I was.

This 100% .
Every single time on here if someone is somewhat different or rude or considered lazy or with no empathy.

It must be autism!
Or it could be that the ops daughter has never had to pay or take responsibility for herself. She has reached 25 year old and never had to worry about the things a lot of us do at 18 .
All her problems can easily be explained away by the fact she sounds spoilt .

This. Do you want to be living like this for years to come?

I agree. It’s worth an assessment to find out or rule it out.

Thank you, definitely much better now! Still learning about myself but getting diagnosed made such a difference.
It's crazy how having one person diagnosed makes you look at the rest of the family isn't it!

OP- I’m a bit baffled/ you came here to discuss quite a significant problem, but are coming across as quite defensive and rigid. You want your daughter to change but you’re not prepared to change anything yourself. So I doubt much will change.

So if you want your current situation with your daughter to change, you’re going to have to make changes yourself. Only you can decide what those are but there’s lots of good suggestions on here. I doubt your daughter will take the initiative because she’s comfortable (but seemingly unhappy) as she is.

I agree with pp your thread seems a bit pointless If you are arguing the point? You asked how to change the situation then got annoyed and defensive when there was advice on how to change the situation.

Op what did you expect posters to say?

She’s doing it because you enable her. She’ll never move out at this rate

This. She is being physically abusive to your DH which is unforgivable. I know you love her but you are doing her no favours. She needs to leave, find a job and live in the real world. I can't believe you have enabled this for so long tbh

Wether she is autistic or not is not really the issue here as I see it, yes it may be part of the reason she acts as she does, but to be a happy, contributing member of society she needs help to recognise boundaries as otherwise nothing will change.
OP you seem to reject all suggestions of things to try as saying they won’t work, but you do need to set boundaries of what’s acceptable to you and the rest of the family now in order to help your daughter long term or what will happen to her when you are no longer around?
i know several autistic people, all with their own unique challenges, and life can be hard for them, but all manage to consider others and not behave in the way your daughter is allowed too.

I can’t physically evict her.

Why not?

Ultimately this is a choice you are making that enables her to stay against your wishes.

OP you have pushed back and rejected all suggestions, which means that it will continue as it is.
So go back to why you posted in the first place.
You are fed up with how it is, and want something to change.

One thing you can do.
When her current run at the theatre is finished, let her know that you can no longer drive her to rehearsals.
She will need to pay for taxis, (and therefore need to claim benefits or get a job) or move closer to the place where the theatre is.
Yes that make mean she has to stop with the theatre for a while. And yes, some people may be disappointed. But that is up to her, not you.

That will get a kick back from her. But it is then up to HER what she does with this information. You don't have to do anything further. Her life, her responsibility. Let go.

Another thing you can do is to change something around food and meals.
For example, say that it is lovely that she cooks, but because you like to eat earlier, you will feed yourselves on Mon, Wed, Fri and eat with her on Tues, Thurs, Sat for example.

So you are changing YOUR actions, not hers. That means she can do what she likes with the new situation. If she wants to cook daily, then meal time is 7 pm.
If not, then you continue to cook for yourselves.

The issue around her safety is finally up to her. If she chooses to run late at night, then you cannot stop her. You have to back off and let go, and allow her to make her own choices. She is an adult, and you are an adult. She is not a child or a teenager.

OP, I agree with what these last few posters have said, and I talk as someone who was the enabler and allowed my son to become rigid, unyielding, stubborn, and ultimately unhappy. You have to stop making excuses for her. She can take herself to rehearsal or miss out. She can run outside in the dark and take the risk. She can pay for her own driving lessons. And you can claim back your home and your sanity. Stop enabling her - start giving her the responsibility she can so obviously cope with... but doesn't have to.

Oh, here we go. None of her behaviour is her fault, should be next....

Yes but, it really does sound as if she is autistic. And I know what I am talking about. 20+ years in autism diagnosis and support, training nationally and internationally (and an AMA thread in classics).

Autistic people are not as a rule rude or unpleasant, or at least no more so than anyone else. Their behaviours are misunderstood and interpreted that way. The person themselves generally has no such intention.

I hate it when people say "as soon as someone is categorised as rude along come the people saying autism". We don't say it because they are "rude" (at least, I don't). We say it because we recognise the subtle ways undiagnosed autistic women in particular often weave through life, accidentally getting people's backs up or knocking up against societal imperatives.

OP, I really do think she is possibly neurodivergent. Does that help at all? To think of her in those terms?

@AutismProfyou can’t say that based off a few paragraphs off the internet. Good grief.

I can't diagnose, and haven't, but I can say that from the description and knowing what I know about autistic women, it certainly sounds like autism.

Just like if someone said "my child has a fever, a red sandpaper-like rash and a swollen red tongue" someone will come along and say "sounds like scarlet fever".

'accidentally getting people's backs up...' What? She's rude and threatening, and has been physically violent with her dad, ffs...

Sorry OP this isn't what you want to hear but you have to get tougher. Tell her when you want dinner. If she's huffy say you can't wait beyond 8pm and make your own dinner. You only need do that a couple of times to change the dynamic. You need to incentivise moving out by making living with you less easy. Change the WiFi password. Stop buying in food she likes. Stop doing her washing etc. I wouldn't stop taking her to drama events as those are positive but I wouldn't give her lifts anywhere else other than for a job.