Impossible adult daughter still at home

[Worldwearygardener]

My daughter is 25 years old and still lives at home with us. We are retired. She has never had a proper job as she cannot decide on a career that would suit her. We paid for her tuition fees and rent/living fees when she was at university so she has no debt. She works periodically but keeps all the money for herself and never offers to contribute financially to the household in any way.
She does cook meals for the family but always at a time that suits her so it’s often closer to 9 o’clock than 8 o’clock - even though we’d prefer to eat around 7.30pm. If we ask her what time dinner is going to be, she gets very angry and will not tell us. Apart from meal preparation and online food shopping, she does little in the way of household chores.
Our daughter’s love is theatre and we have always supported her fully with this hobby. She doesn’t drive so we take her back and forth to rehearsals and encourage all our friends to see anything she is in. We have not paid for driving lessons as she seems to have no appreciation of her own safety. She goes running in dark, deserted areas whilst wearing headphones - despite us telling her how dangerous that is. Even crossing roads, she expects the cars to stop for her. She doesn’t like to follow rules and doesn’t seem to understand that some rules are put in place to protect her and other people.
Every morning, she takes her breakfast back to bed and regularly stays there until after midday. She will then stay up until the early hours of the morning, usually sitting at the family computer.
In addition to this, our daughter is regularly rude and condescending when interacting with me but is verbally (and occasionally physically) cruel to her father and the two of them rarely speak. This makes him both sad and angry and he takes his anger out on me.
Our daughter has always been very controlling but also volatile. We spend our daily lives treading on eggshells so that we don’t make her angry. I learned very early on that punishing our daughter didn’t work. There was no point in putting her on the “naughty step” as she would never understand that she had done anything wrong. I think she did, and still does, consider me a little unhinged and petty. Taking away any privileges just made her angry with me, it did not encourage her to behave properly.
Our daughter could not enjoy school as she could not respond to discipline and saw little benefit in a good education.
There is no point in trying to discuss all of these issues with her as she refuses to talk through the problems. She flounces away and then there is a horrible atmosphere in the house and nothing is ever resolved.
Our daughter willingly admits that she doesn’t like people although she has a few friends she has made through her drama society.
She struggles to engage in regular conversations unless, again, it is theatre related.
The obvious answer is that she should find a full time job and rent a room somewhere before our relationship with her is ruined completely. However, we love our daughter very much and don’t want to make her life completely miserable. In any case, she could not share a house with people as she demands the kitchen to herself and has some OCD issues.
Any suggestions and advice would be gratefully received.

I’m also Audhd and I think it is more common for undiagnosed autistic people to be described so negatively as being parented as if you were NT can cause a lot of family resentment and irritation over autistic traits like blunt honesty that are perceived as deliberate rudeness or the need to be alone in your room for big chunks of the day being perceived as using home as a hotel..etc

A lot of it is the perception rather than the actions themselves,

All the posters berating other posters because they have suggested Autism and are nothing like the OP’s DD…….

Isn’t that what ASD is? Different for everyone?

My DD is a lot like the OP DD. My other DD and my DS are not. All 3 have ASD.

Stop being a doormat.

Threads like this blow my mind
She works periodically but keeps all the money for herself and never offers to contribute financially to the household in any way.
How did you let this happen. You don't ask, you tell her she is paying rent or she moves out.

She does cook meals for the family but always at a time that suits her so it’s often closer to 9 o’clock than 8 o’clock - even though we’d prefer to eat around 7.30pm. If we ask her what time dinner is going to be, she gets very angry and will not tell us.
How did you let it get to this point? She treats you with respect or she moves out.

Apart from meal preparation and online food shopping, she does little in the way of household chores.
DS is ten. He does chores. How have you let the last FIFTEEN years slide???

You end up in this situation by your own actions not hers. Someone with autism needs to be taught these things every bit as much as anyone else. Autism is not an excuse here.

Aside from the autism debate, you say she has completed a degree at university. She must have some skills and independence to do this. She must have been able to organise her own social life and get herself places during her course of study when she needed to / wanted to. And she must have been able to share living space to live away from you at university. She must have been able to organise herself and follow rules enough to submit assignments on time and to a quality that she passed her degree. Therefore I think she’s taking the piss a bit if she can’t do anything for herself now. I also think that many people her age would have been encouraged to be far more capable that she seems or chooses to be. This is going to be hard work for her to change but there’s some good advice on other posts.

It’s the MN go-to explanation for everything under the sun.

When I was in counselling I mentioned this to my counsellor (as I suspect DD has ADHD since she was in preschool but never managed to get her assessed and this was long before diagnosis went off the charts everywhere) and she asked me “Even if she is, will that change anything? She still needs to learn boundaries and independence”. It made me rethink the way I approach her now.

It’s not easy, OP, but boundaries have to be put in place. Mine is 20 and I’m already going crazy, by 25 she’ll have me 6 feet under if don’t change. It’s very difficult to live with chaos.

Unless the post says elderly or older.

Then it's dementia being the hypothesis for someone being an aggressive or abusive asshole.

There's always some pathology suggested.

Which totally disregard any victims of the shitty behaviour and implies they should just be more understanding.

Can you move out for a month? Even if it is to a holiday flat in the same town.
Give yourself a break, talk things through with your dh without the fear of your dd looming over you.
Wouldn't do any harm for your dd to rely on herself for a month either.

You mention ocd. Is this self diagnosed? I have been diagnosed with this. You could insist she gets to a GP for help.

She absolutely can manage people and the outside world.

The food thing sounds like a habit. What happens when the clock changes? Maybe start with that. Have a cooked lunch and go to the cinema or theatre.

I really sympathise. The difference is my dd24 was diagnosed with asd at 18. She has her routines and we shuffle along quite well. She takes Sertraline and I can tell if she runs out.

This has neurodivergence written all over it

However, we love our daughter very much and don’t want to make her life completely miserable.

This is your problem op. You have enabled this appalling behaviour. I can't get my head around why on earth you need to be doing all of these things and have never tried to build her independence. She also doesn't sound especially happy with all her being nasty and volatile and spending most of the day in bed. She sounds depressed.

No contributions to housekeeping.
No housework
Driving her to theatre
Allowing her to stay in bed all day
Staying up all night on the family computer
Allowing nastiness
Not providing any consequences...regardless of whether you think she learns from them, she does still need consequences because by tolerating this you are all unhappy.

To be honest it sounds like oppositional defiance disorder to me. As an adult you cannot force her to seek a diagnosis or support with any of these issues but you can explain to her that you cannot live with her anymore due to her behaviour towards you. Set a clear deadline for when she must leave and agree that you might help out with a rental deposit but that she must work out how she is going to fund herself. She can explode all she likes and you must just allow her to have that reaction however uncomfortable it makes you feel. Alternatively if that's too extreme work on a smaller boundary. She must complete some household tasks, if they aren't completed you won't be driving her to her hobby. Again, stand firm in the face of her inevitable explosion about this. Then add cooking a meal twice a week by 7pm....again without the lifts....and if she closes not to do either of these things then you don't give her a lift. Turn off the Internet at whatever time you want her to stop being online and go to bed. Explain that it's your house your rules. If you make life a bit more unpleasant she will be forced to address her issues and change her life.

My parents had this with my sister and didn’t address it - hindsight is a wonderful thing - but it resulted in failure to launch. She’s still at home at 35 and doesn’t do much. So I don’t have any answers, but you are right to want to actively address it - pls don’t let it go on and on, it isn’t fair on you and ultimately it isn’t good for her either.

It doesn't matter what name of diagnosis you give, the bottom line is that you have allowed your daughter to bully you into underwriting her immature lifestyle and for all your sakes, this has to stop.
Sit her down and tell her that she has to get a job and a flat within six months. Offer to pay the deposit and first month's rent.
Do not give in to any tantrums, bullying, threats or pleading.
Then - enjoy having your house back.
I feel really sorry for your husband btw.

I completely agree. It’s possible to be an arse and that not have anything to do with having any neurodivergence. Equally it’s possible to both be an arse any be ND.

Downsize.
You and your husband sell up and move to a smaller house. Tell her you’ll give her a nest egg to help her start her independent life. She can use it to pay the deposit on a rental and the first month’s rent.

She sounds very entitled. You poor things.

Yes and/or adhd

What do you think will become of her when you and your poor husband are dead or in care homes? She’ll have no chance.

Take the advice of others on this thread, before it’s to late.

She doesn’t sound autistic, she sounds like a giant, spoiled baby. You have no boundaries in place and are facilitating her behaviour. I speak from experience - my son was the same until we took what felt like drastic steps. He wouldn’t get a job, so we got one for him. We charged him £500 a month in rent (and saved it for when he moved out). After a few months we told him he had to move out, and when he didn’t we made him leave. He stayed in a hotel for a few nights before we caved and had him back BUT he knew we meant business. We kept on at him and threatened to rent him a place of our choosing unless he took control
of his own life. After a few more months he moved out amicably, and he is thriving. We were holding him back with all the best will in the world, and you are doing the same. Honestly, I read your post and got angry - why on earth are you putting up with her nonsense? You are killing her with kindness. The best thing you can do now is give her purpose, and if that means she is physically kicked out of the house so she gets a job, then do it.

@Summerseagull I completely agree. Its incredibly lazy thinking - person is rude and difficult, therefore they must be autistic.

Take a complete step back. Even if she is autistic she needs to start being independent, she might need a little bit more support but it sounds like no one’s happy at the moment.
Stop giving her lifts, give her a deadline for getting a job and paying you rent. Then ideally moving out.
She shouldn’t be contributing to cooking and cleaning but not dictating what time you eat. Just live your lives to suit yourselves not her.

Tell her it's time she moved out as you are no longer willing to have her in your house. She is a spoilt selfish brat. Stop enabling this.

Thank you to everyone who has responded. It’s very difficult to give the full picture in a few paragraphs but I have taken on board the comments and suggestions.

It's so boring when people say 'bad behaviour doesn't mean you're autistic'. Yes we all know this, what it does often mean though is that you're not coping - and if you haven't been diagnosed ASD then it's quite likely that nothing has ever been put in place to support/help you, you're constantly having to mask - and living in an NT world is a huge struggle that you don't understand why you're not coping with.

To those people with diagnosed, well supported kids with ASD - well there's the reason your kids are doing well. It sounds like they don't suffer the comorbidities of anxiety, depression, OCD etc - that's great for them! Doesn't mean that others who do suffer with those things will have the same resilience, coping skills, self awareness etc.

I have a son with ASD, and a family where several of the younger generation are diagnosed with dyslexia/dyspraxia and/or ASD. I would be considering ASD OP.

What’s the plan Worldweary? I’m rooting for you to get some semblance of your life back here!

Quite honestly, I don’t know yet. I can’t just force my daughter to see a doctor, seek counselling and nor can I force her to get a job or leave the family home. What do you expect me to threaten her with? I can ask her to do those things but she has to be prepared to listen. We do not live in an area where she can use public transport so we would be letting many people down if we refuse to take her to rehearsals. I am certainly not about to pay for her driving lessons, a driving test and a car (and insurance). Sorry, but it’s
not a parent’s responsibility to pay for
their child to learn to drive, is it? My parents didn’t give me a penny towards learning to drive. What’s more, not everyone is suited to driving and, if she caused a serious accident, I would have to live with that. Nor will I sell my much-loved family home in order to force her out. I’ll end up more unhappy than I am now. I would also add that any woman who goes running in deserted areas at night, whilst wearing headphones, must need her brains tested. Why on earth would you risk your own safety for the sake of a little jog? I certainly wouldn’t. Of course the likelihood is nothing will happen but something might. Why risk it?
Please do not be under the impression I’m a doormat as I have had numerous very, very heated rows with my daughter. I certainly did discipline her as a child just not in the way I disciplined my son as I learned very quickly that that method would not work. She was an articulate and well-behaved child (most of the time) who achieved good GCSEs, A Levels and a degree. I do not believe it was poor parenting that has led us into this situation. Incidentally, my son is a model citizen who has always been a credit to us.
So you see there isn’t an easy solution to my problem.
And, no, my daughter has never claimed any benefits at all. As I’ve already said, she does work intermittently. As for taking friends to see her perform, they are very happy to go as she is a talented girl and is part of a fantastic society.
I have been away on holiday and she runs the family home without any problem. She does all her own washing anyway and is happy to clean when we’re not there. I allow her to cook because she’s good at it and enjoys it. I don’t want to take that away from her.
I have been talking to a friend today who knows her and recognises that there is something going on but can’t put her finger on what’s made her the way she is. Fear of rejection, maybe, stemming from issues at school that were never dealt with properly. She thinks the anger issues are all down to growing frustration because she is too scared of tackling the world alone.

I hope I’ve covered everything and thanks again to everyone who commented.

At age 25, doesn't understand her personal safety, doesn't appear generally "safe" to learn to drive yet. Doesn't pick up on social pressure around parental desire to eat at earlier times. Difficult history wrt compliance with rules in school. Struggles to see things from others' viewpoint. Has strong passion and finds conversing around this subject much easier. Rejection sensitivity (usually due to history of social misunderstanding being assumed to be deliberate and dealt with by punishment) and struggles with friends except where there is a shared special interest.

It is not because she is described as rude or unpleasant that people have suggested autism (I would suggest AuDHD). It's because she has a history of rubbing up against life and not quite finding things work for her, and lots of features which could be understood as social understanding and communication differences.