I desperately need advice, I am at my wits end

[OhMyChristMickk]

DD is 20, 21 in a few weeks.

Very likely Autistic but failed by the NHS in this when she was a child. I do think this is relevant. We were told repeatedly she didn’t meet the criteria for a diagnosis. I have ADHD and there is a lot of autism/adhd in my family (all diagnosed in the last few years).

She has never really launched as an adult.

A very brief and hopefully not too outing timeline of her recent years - failed first year of A levels and then with a lot of my help got an apprenticeship (I was driving her to and from- 3 hours driving a day) She was let go from this after 6 weeks because she just simply didn’t do any work. College then agreed to have her back for a Btech course which to her credit she completed.

So she left college almost a year ago and since then has had several part time bar jobs and been sacked from every one. The most recent one has withheld her wages saying that she owes it for stock discrepancies. (Illegally, and I am fighting this for her) The thing is she is a terrible employee. She calls in sick, is late, is rude to customers and will just refuse to do things.

I have accompanied her to the job centre, and got her into an employment scheme for adults with additional needs. But as she is an adult they quite rightly don’t communicate with me, and she tells me nothing. Or outright lies. So I don’t know what’s going on with that.

She seems to actually despise us. She spends most of her time at her boyfriends house. Which is a huge issue as she has a pet that she brought home early last year as a birthday present to herself despite us saying no. We have no option really but to care for the pet. Re homing is not an option, he is loved and cared for and it’s not his fault. But he is a handful, and adds a huge deal of stress. She’s basically abandoned him.

Recently we started receiving debt letters. I opened them. I found out she owed £400 to Klarna for various clothes and shoes purchases going back to early last year, she had set up all these credit agreements and not made a single payment. When I spoke to her she said oh I didn’t think Klarna was that serious, like it’s just an app. The debt collectors were threatening bailiffs so I just paid it off (onto my credit card!) and told her she’d be paying me back as soon as she got paid. Over the next hour or so she dripfed that she also owed nearly £2k on a credit card and overdraft. I helped her contact StepChange. Made it very clear that I needed her to pay me that £400 as I had gone into debt myself for it.

Next pay day (last week) she only got paid half and after initially lying to us for a week about it being a mix up eventually confessed yesterday that she’d been sacked and wages withheld.

I told her she would have to give me what she had been paid and just go without any money for the month. And then we find out that she’s already spent £200 of it on Pokémon cards and the pub. She has given me £150. She now has no money coming in until either universal credit or new job pans out.

Talking to her goes round in circles. She is contrite (sometimes) and makes promises and then nothing changes.

She has had an interview today for a part time job. But I don’t see what will be different this time. She just doesn’t seem to have any adulting skills at all, and I don’t know what else to do. We have tried helping, we have tried discipline, we have tried begging and pleading.

She has made it very clear that she thinks we should fund her. And that she’s happy for us to be in debt to help her out. And she lies and lies and lies.

My own parents chucked me out at 15 and again at 18 and I had a terrible time of it so I have always been adamant I would never kick her out. But she’s nearly fucking 21! When does it end? What the fuck do we do? She would have nowhere to go and no way of supporting herself. How can I make her into a functioning adult?

This is probably really outing now if anyone knows us in rl but I am desperate for help here.

What support? There is no support.

Speaking as the parent of two adult dds who are studying, one of whom is late diagnosed as autistic, I think the expectation of £300 per month, even for the non-ND dd who works pt, is quite a lot in the current financial climate. Sorry to say but your holidays may have to wait a bit.

And 21 years is quite young nowadays, even for non-neurodiverse YAs. Remember they have missed two crucial years of development thanks to the pandemic.

I think autism or adhd has to be ruled out first before you can make progress.

Does she have any sensory issues op?

And I would love to know how she was rude to customers in her previous jobs? Was it a reluctance to communicate or was it deliberate defiance? Or demand avoidance?

What was it about her Btech college that allowed her to succeed?

I agree with others that your expectations may be too high, as progress where ND issues are present is not always linear.

The Pokemon cards for example sound quite “young”.

Btw do you believe her about where all of this money is going? For example, are you sure she is not drinking excessively or taking drugs? What is her bf like? Have you met his parents? In your shoes I would be thinking about manufacturing an excuse to meet them.

Normally rules about respecting your adult child’s privacy are extremely important but I think she has forefeited that privilege sadly with all of her debt issues which are very concerning.

I think you need to get advice from Step Change too and explain the situation and find a way of completely separating your finances. You might also “out” her to credit card companies if she is using your address and warn her bf’s parents too.

You are quite right to put greater controls in place around paying rent and spending and your dd needs to learn that until she becomes consistently honest and trustworthy with money, then you will not be trusting her word.

One other thing, you mentioned about your dh crying at the thought of rehoming the cat. With respect to him, although I agree about not rehoming the animal, I think your dh needs to step up and be more of a support to you op. Explain to him that you need him to be stronger for you.

Overall though op, I think your dd may just need longer to « bake ». Not all dc are the same. Some are fully independent at sixteen. Other people never really mature properly. Generally though, YAs improve considerably after the age of twenty-five. More than likely this situation will improve so don’t give up hope.

Try and step back emotionally and don’t take this so personally. She doesn’t hate you. She is rejecting you because she needs to individuate as an adult. For sure, she has a lot of growing up to do, but with a mother like you in her corner. more than likely you will both come through this ok.

If she is ND then she likely has a reduced capacity, less spoons to get through the day. You need to prioritise and since you're, understandably, not willing to remove the cat it needs to not be part of this process. I think limiting it to part time work as you mentioned above OP is a good idea, then the priority is learning to manage the money she does have and her caring for herself, so cleaning up after herself and doing her own laundry. Don't split the focus, the pet shouldn't be included, she doesn't need to learn how to care for a pet, it's not a necessary life skill. Focus on the things that are. Too many things is overwhelming and splits what capacity she has too thin. I would tell her the pet is no longer hers and is off the table and that she needs to focus on work and cleaning up after herself and you're going to work on a budget together which she'll need fo stick too. If she's flown under the radar for ADHD it's more likely she's on the ADD side of things which means she probably has trouble with impulsively. This won't help with thr spending side of things. Ideally she needs no access to debt, which is hard. Paying rent and debt as soon as she gets pay/UC reduces what she has to spend, she needs to agree to and cancel the credit card and no more credit cards or buy now pay later debt like Klarna.

stargirl1701 · Yesterday 17:23
Have you implemented legal and financial separation from her?

Itisjustmyopinion · Yesterday 17:34
Ensure her debt is not linked to yours

I’m not sure what these posters mean here. This sounds like vague reasonable-sounding nonsense. Unless you are married to your daughter or open joint financial accounts with her, I don’t see how you can be financially linked with her. I will eat humble pie if anyone can show me I’m wrong.

That’s not to say her financial behaviour has no impact on you. Debts can lead to court action, CCJs and high court enforcement officers (bailiffs). The debts will be enforced at your home address, since that is also your daughter’s residence. Once bailiffs gain access to your home, they can take most items of value* unless you can prove they don’t belong to your daughter. Do you have receipts to show who owns most of the valuable stuff in your home? What about the jewellery your mother gave you, some of which was passed down from other family members? They will sell this stuff off at a fraction of the cost to buy them new, if you let them.

Of course, they really don’t want the hassle of selling your stuff, if they can avoid it. They put as much pressure as they can on you, to get you to pay up to keep your stuff and it’s up to you to sort things out privately with your daughter later. Essentially, the debt is transferred from Klarna or whoever, to you. And regardless of various codes of practice, there is still a lot of dubious and downright bad behaviour in the industry around getting into homes. Oftentimes they are just wily though. Not badly behaved particularly. You’re under pressure, you lose focus for a few seconds, turn around to do something or other and they’re in.

*There are some things they can’t take, including children’s belongings, items needed for work and some household appliances. This list is not exclusive.

Thepiecesdontfit333 · Today 02:33
Speaking as the parent of two adult dds who are studying, one of whom is late diagnosed as autistic, I think the expectation of £300 per month, even for the non-ND dd who works pt, is quite a lot in the current financial climate.

And 21 years is quite young nowadays, even for non-neurodiverse YAs. Remember they have missed two crucial years of development thanks to the pandemic.

This is a big part of the problem. If OP’s daughter is in full-time education and is taking it seriously then it’s fine for there to be no expectation of a financial contribution. If she’s earning, whether full-time or part-time, and she should be if she isn’t studying or training, why on earth shouldn’t she be making this modest financial contribution? It covers all the boring stuff and still leaves her with a good amount of fun money.

I will be hated for this but I’m still going to say it because I think it’s part of the problem. British children are remaining children for longer at least in part because they are babied to a greater degree than in the past, and compared to children in other parts of the world. There seems to be this idea that children will naturally mature with little parental involvement.

By the time they’re 18 or 21, some parents are surprised at how juvenile their young adult children still are compared to them at the same age. Others are convinced that the world is a much harsher place now (No.) and the poor darlings just need to be babied for longer. The pandemic is a convenient excuse. Life didn’t stop completely during the pandemic and at some point it starts to look like pathetic clutching at straws to keep using the pandemic as an excuse.

In my country of origin it’s called ‘home training’. You don’t just sit back and wait for children to become fully mature adults. You’ve got to start with the expectations and chores from when they are quite young, even when it is quicker and easier to just do the jobs yourself. You have to persevere even when they resist. The later you start, the more challenging the job when you do start. And if you can’t face asking your child to leave home even when they treat you with contempt, you have the greatest incentive to avoid this situation arising in the first place.

You are welcome to your own opinions Xis but it’s really not necessary to trash everyone else’s while expressing them.

My DDs were profoundly affected by the lockdown and because of their age, which is the same age as op’s dd, it affected their exams, their graduation from school, and their first two years at university, which are all key milestone events .

You have absolutely no idea whether my dc are British or not, or what they experienced during that time, but one of my DDs had severe mh issues, so I would respectfully ask you to keep your judgements, as far as they pertain to my dc, to yourself.

So just to address a few points.

DH is fully supportive and on board. The reason I said about him being upset but the thought of rehoming the cat is because it was noteworthy. If anything he is stricter than I am. He’s actually the one who suggested rehoming, I just think we never thought she would coldly turn around and agree. An extra layer of spice to this is that it occurred while I was spending day and night at the hospice in my beloved dad’s final days and DH was at home with all the pets. She wouldn’t even step up to help him then. She seems to have no empathy at all.

I can’t scroll back as my phone is being a twat but someone said up thread about some people never learning consequences. I have sometimes in dark times genuinely wondered if she is actually a sociopath.

And just to pick up on the holidays/rent thing. This is her perception. That when she started paying rent we started spending it on holidays. Actually my dad dying suddenly made us realise how much time we were wasting and so we have prioritised holidays over the past year, we both work 60 hours weeks, DH with overtime and me with two jobs, to fund this. Her rent only really covers her food, phone and cat costs.

Have both of you always worked such long hours? That must've been absolutely killing you when you were driving her to and from college, if so, and I don't know that I'd have done that if she couldn't get to and from where she needed to be under her own steam.

Has she any siblings? What do they think, if she does? What about your DH is he her Dad or is he a stepdad? I am just wondering if she has had any disruption in her life, beyond the covid that all those of her age have had.

Also, what happened that your parents threw you out twice as a teen? That is unusual, to say the least.

I am so sorry about your dad.

We’ve both worked these hours for about five years now. DH longer. When I was (we were) driving her to and from I was working shifts so I would always take her and DH would pick her up. We were just desperate to have her in education and settled after Covid and an awful first year of college (she didn’t just fail, she was asked to leave).

DH is technically her stepfather but has been since she was four and she adores him. Ex husband was abusive and I left when she and her older brother were toddlers. No contact since (his choice). I’m not blind to the impact this may have had. DS has graduated university and lives in a different part of the country. Younger DS is a teenager. All kids brought up as full siblings and in a tight family unit (DH is Dad to all, no distinctions ever made).

I had quite a troubled time as a teenager (now know it was undiagnosed ADHD) and ‘moved on’ with my boyfriends family while I was doing my GCSEs. Home wasn’t pleasant, a sibling died and another one was off the rails. My parents moved house at this time and as I’d ’moved out’ they didn’t allocate me a room. When the relationship ended when I was 18 I moved back and stayed on the sofa, clashed horribly with my mum and she bin bagged all my stuff and locked the door. We have since mended our relationship but I was adamant my kids would always have a home. Somewhat ironically all the things I wanted to avoid for them that I faced (debt, sketchy job history, trauma) DD seems to have found her way to regardless.

Register with one of the credit check agencies and submit the form that indicates you are not financially linked.

Interesting how you think it's Autism.

I'm autistic and hate to be late or to let anyone down.

Sounds more like ADHD especially if you have it.

Perhaps a couple of people have missed a post. OP and DH love the pet now and could not bear to rehome him. Really he is their pet now. He may be doing an important job of stress relief in the household.

So many posts on here saying "she needs to work" or "she needs to get a job".

The OP has made it clear that she gets jobs, but doesn't hold on to them because she doesn't work hard enough, is late etc. I know two ND young adults who are in the same boat, they get jobs and as soon as their probation period is over they're let go, if it even gets that far.

I don't know what the answer is btw. One of the ND young adults is a member of my extended family and her parents are tearing their hair out. I can see them working themselves into the ground for ever in order to finance her needs and being stuck with her at home til the end of days.

You have had such a hard time, OP . It must be especially sad to see DD not coping when you tried so hard to provide stability. You still love her which is the main thing. I think a support group for parents in a similar position could be helpful at the moment. Also DD working part time.

I think if you (and your extended family?) have ADHD, then your daughter probably does, too.

ADHD meds are life-changing, and can assist with all of the impulsive, RSD and dopamining behaviours that you describe in your DD.

The first step is to try to get her a diagnosis (through Right To Choose?). Medication might be transformative.

Sounds VERY similar to my 20 yo dd but she's at uni thankfully, though essays are alwayssss late and I think she's called in sick to placement more than I know. She's bank at a nursing home and not worked since November as apparently there's no shifts and has bank with the NHS she was offered in August but still hasn't started apparently to do with waiting on uniform which I think is bullshit as she had modules to do I never seen evidence of being done then some training days - manual handling etc, that she disappeared briefly for then came back and said she didn't need to do it as she had it. I'm paying 400 a month on debt of hers to a credit card she's supposed to pay me but I never got. Lies, blows up when asked about things, is disorganised, messy, loses things. Has mental health issues, anxiety, previous self harm. So you have my sympathy.

We went for a private diagnoses but she never turned up. Is that an option for you?

@Xis You have a point to be honest - my friend charged £300 about 8 years ago, the only difference is that she’s not local.

Could be worse, in my country it’s uncommon to charge anything unless your parents really desperately need it.

Hi OP

You really are trying your best and are doing a wonderful job. This is so hard.

I hope you don't mind if I share some thoughts. I'm a psychologist who has worked with young people and their families and also have lived experience (a close family member who is very similar to yours.) I work in Australia, though, and am also aware our mental health systems work differently.

If I've got this right, your DD did not meet diagnostic criteria for ASD - as a child. But she is now an adult and must be helped to see that an updated assessment would be helpful.

(Even if she does not meet current criteria, it seems as if therapy and further recommendations would be useful for her, you and your husband.)

The background as I understand it is that you have (late-diagnosed) ADHD. In addition, there is also a history of both conditions in your extended family.

I am sure you are aware that ADHD - whether of the hyperactive, impulsive or combined type - is highly heritable. Reading your descriptions of your DD's behaviour this is what is standing out to me. There is also often some crossover between ASD/ADHD as many here would know, so she may have traits of both conditions.

I also understand that her biological father is problematic to say the least and not on the scene, therefore he is likely to be someone who may well have diagnoses of his own, particularly given your description of him as being abusive etc. (You add that your DD shows some antisocial (sociopathic) tendencies. She is not necessarily sociopathic because she lies by the way - this might just be a coping strategy for her, that 'works' on some level.) I say all this only to indicate that your DD may be carrying a heavy genetic load.

You also have a significant history of trauma within your family of origin with a sibling sadly passing away, another you describe as going off the rails - and your parents demonstrated that the only way for them to cope with your challenges was to kick you out.

All this is to say: there is a lot to unpack here.

You are to be commended for the truly amazing job you have done in not only surviving your own very difficult upbringing, and subsequent abusive relationship with your DD's biological father, but in also forging a successful marriage and bringing up three children. That is incredible.

But genetics have a way of showing up, quite obviously in some kids. This is why some of our kids might be 'easy' to parent, others not so much.

You definitely need a second opinion about your DD's behaviours. Females in particular can kind of muddle along and mask to a greater or lesser extent during their school years because of the imposed structure they are operating within. So they can slip under the ASD diagnostic radar when young but the shit often hits the fan later on, mainly when life becomes less structured and/or they are expected to adult. This might be why she didn't reach diagnostic criteria when young, as possibly the demands of the environment didn't exceed her capacity. They certainly appear to be now though.

As I don't live in the UK I'm not sure what you're up against with waitlists etc. I agree with a lot of the good advice you've been given already so I won't add to that. Your DD is lucky to have such a caring mother go has been through so much herself. I hope you have some great support too. This stuff is very tough. I hope this helps a little. And glad to hear you're keeping the cat, of course.

I would also recommend the book Taking Charge of adult ADHD by Russell Barkley.

This is an incredibly helpful post.

I've no advice to offer but wanted to give you a hug and say how thoughtful and empathetic you sound.
That it seems you are doing the absolute best you can in the most difficult of circumstances.

The don’t care attitude over debt must be infuriating for you and that is the one element of the troubles she presents, that I would concentrate on most for the time being, if only to prevent it escalating.

Tell her you don’t do debt in your house and all debts are going to be paid off before she buys anything else. Your idea of giving her an allowance is a good one if it can be enforced.

Is her dad a bit of a softie OP ?
It sounds as if the responsibility/burden for parenting might all be falling onto you all the time and she has become immune to your advice, warnings and admonishments.
Is there someone else in the family she would reasonably listen to, who could more effectively spell out the danger of debt she has so carelessly got herself into, as well as general finance management such as saving, pension, food shopping, planning etc.

I would also work out exactly how much she costs the household. Show her clearly, the costs for her food, laundry, heating, hot water, rent, council tax, insurance, maintenance etc. And raise your expectations of her in terms of respect, consideration of your feelings and gratitude.

Hoping she is successful with the job, for a fresh start at getting her finances under firm control.

Just popping back to add that my AuDHD daughter is 35, so her 'slow to mature' problems were definitely part of her diagnosis, not Covid. And that the nature of volunteer work (she put in hours in a local Oxfam shop) meant that she learned how to deal with people but in a slower, less pressurised way than would have been necessary in paid employment, which was what helped her. Although now she works in a solo role! She went to university as an adult student and lived in halls the entire time and wasn't formally diagnosed until she was 30.

You are to be commended for the truly amazing job you have done in not only surviving your own very difficult upbringing, and subsequent abusive relationship with your DD's biological father, but in also forging a successful marriage and bringing up three children. That is incredible.
Your DD is lucky to have such a caring mother go has been through so much herself.
What friend to the animals said with bells on.

OP does she feel like working is pointless because she has to give you 'all' her money? I know it's not true but this may be how it feels to her. What's the point of working when it's just going to mum who spends it on holidays and to pay debts (even if they are her debts!).

If you can afford it can you say to her you'll take the £300 rent but some/all of it will be saved for her for the future? You and her SD have decided not to rehome her cat when she thought that was a good idea so I don't think she should be paying for that any longer. It's your choice to keep it now and she is clearly not up to looking after it.

I would give lots and lots of support and encouragement for the job, the priority right now is getting her into a job and keeping the job. It's difficult with you both being so busy but I really think she could do with someone making sure she is up and taking her to the job. Her maturity is obviously way off due to being ND and I would say she still needs a lot of hand holding and breaking things down into small steps. Mine is 18 and has ASD so I know what it's like.

She's not a sociopath, please don't think that. It's not a diagnosis now anyway it's antisocial personality disorder. She not a violet criminal so I'm pretty sure it doesn't fit. She is immature and impulsive and maybe a bit reckless and she might struggle with empathy but those all fit with ADHD. You need to see her as a younger child who needs a lot of hand holding, a lot of support, to be very clear on what's acceptable and what's not but also a lot of encouragement and to believe in her. I have no doubt that her self esteem is probably on the floor. She failed a lot and struggled an awful lot and that doesn't tend to lead to high self esteem.