What does everyone think of Fathers 4 Justice?

[starrynight]

I only ask because my sister is being terrorised by her ex who was violent toward her throughout her pregnancy (she left when babe was 1 mth old & lived in a refuge for about 2 years - he was about to beat her up only 4 wks after having a Caesarean).

It seems to me she has no rights at all - He disappeared for a year and then turned up demanding to see his son, hasn't paid a penny maintainance, is basically disruptive and manipulative. She has been forced to go to mediation (where she was removed from the room for her own safety) but has to continue with it or 'it will look bad'. He is denying all the abuse and although police were called he was never charged.

Her solicitor and the mediator are telling her that basically, he will get access to her son & within 3-6months will be entitled to have him for weekends. I think this is appalling - where are the rights of the child?

Anyway, I can't help thinking that Fathers 4 Justice are sheltering and supporting fathers like him - he is a fantastically manipulative man and could convince anyone that she is a hysterical liar. Who is there to protect the women and children???

..and GA, to answer your question on fathers loosing interest we'd need Richard Dawkins or Helena Cronin. If anyone knows either tell them to pop in for a chat!

Gomez - I think 1 and 3 are definitely unreasonable, 2 is probably unreasonable (although what we are talking here is a compromise between her needs/ wishes and those of xp and children - although I think both parties have to be prepared to undertake some inconvenience to ensure that contact takes place) and 4 I can understand. May not agree with it, but sometimes you compromise with someone because you are with them, but that doesn't mean you're happy about it. EG I used to tolerate visiting my MIL in her house that smelled of 3 cats and fags, but there is no way I would allow that for my children now, because I no longer have to compromise to keep xp happy. I just don't want my kids sleeping in an unhygienic, smoky household. I don't think that's unreasonable. I think MIL should smoke outside and stop being mad and drunk if she wants her grandchildren to stay with her - but I guess xp might see that as unreasonable! In the same way, I guess that woman now feels that as she doesn't have to go along with the dog thing anymore, she's not going to. (And she may have a genuine concern that the child will get bitten - it's always one of my paranoia's when my kids go to houses where there are dogs. I know it's unlikely, but it's one of those mad things I can't help worrying about.)

The problem here is that family breakdown is a bummer and trying to balance the needs of all parties involved is bloody difficult. And most people do it amazingly well, considering. And the problem with f4j is that they make it sound like it's all a disaster, when in fact for most, they have teething problems, they have blips, but in the end they manage to work out some kind of civilised arrangement because they put the needs of their kids first. And that's what's so lacking in the f4j agenda - the needs of the kids.

Do we agree that F4J have their own agenda seperate to whats in the kids best interests??

Saraha, you can't let this monster in your lives. It is appalling. Call the police re your injuries and put a stop to this. It is NOT good for children to see a man like this. Would you let your children spend ONE minute of their time with a violent, psychopathic man if he wasn't their sperm-donor? Of course not. He's clearly unfit to be in anyone's company, let alone that of your vulnerable children. Get an injunction. He's a monster.
GA's posts are a complete joke. Yeah, right, women bring all violence on themselves. Like the two women in the news recently who were not only murdered themselves by their former partners, but in one case the father also murdered his own 15 year old son, and in the other the woman was pregnant. Oh, and bloke who recently got away with murder by claiming his wife 'taunted him' about his sexual prowess and got a pitiful sentence of a few years.
Of course not all women are saints. My own dh is a fantastic father to all his children, and has been put through hell by his ex. But the idea that violent men should have contact with their kids is just stupid. Only stupid people would think it is OK.

Now come on Aloha, stop beating about the bush!

Monkeytrousers - I agree with that!

NO (or at least i dont have enough evidence to suggest thats the case)

Read their forums Guardian Angel - and their threads on Melanie Phillips' website re this issue. You'll find all the evidence you need!

Disagreeing with F4J doesnt mean this still isnt a debate that needs to be conducted. It's their methods that are suspect and reveal their real agenda - women hating pure and simple. Just wanted to clairfy that.

Don't get me started on the CSA! I was told, when I realised that my assessment was more than twice the norm for one child, that I was paying for all the dad's they can't find.

Good point HD!

F4J get on my nerves because they seem to be getting so much press coverage for an issue that affects such a small number of people. Having said that I do know of a number of fathers (decent, normal, non-abusive men contributing to their children's upkeep) who are messed around by their ex wives apparently just for the sake of it.
I suffer the reverse, I had to take ex-H to court to get money out of him and he regularly messes me around with regard to when he will see the children.
Starrynight, your sister should be able to argue for supervised visits if there is a history of violence.
Grrrrr

I havnt read all of the thread,but I believe that a Dad has rights as much as a mum. Of course there has to be guide lines. Sometimes men are violent towards their partners but would not harm their offspring! As a mother why do we get to call all the shots. I am divorced from my first husband and activly encourage my ex to see the children although never violant he was pretty useless as a father! Now they have quality time together and he is much better. Our split made him a better Dad.

nice one Mandy, its better that way, when you can do it.

"Sometimes men are violent towards their partners but would not harm their offspring!"

Mandy, being violent towards their mother, is harming the children.

Watching your mother being beaten up is one of the most terrifying, distressing and confusing things for a child to suffer. It makes you distrustful of adults. It makes the world unsafe and bewildering. The one thing we all as parents try to do, is to protect our children from the big bad world, to make their homes and families a haven of safety. Having your mother beaten up in front of you, destroys that sense of safety in the world and gives very young children a sense of terror and isolation. How anyone can say that doesn't do them any harm, is beyond me.

It's about time society started to recognise that the relationship with the mother is not separate from the relationship with the children. It all hangs together. Children don't compartmentalise in that convenient fashion and pretending that they do can only be harmful to them.

No one would disagree with you Mandy but that's not what we're discussing. It's F4J and their methods and tactics.

Missed that one Caligula. Agree with you. Mandy, read the posts so we don't have to go over old ground. x

oooh, who made monkey trousers god of this thread eh! You carry on Mandy love, we are all ears.

Come on, play the game GA!!!!;)

think I will retire from this one!!!
You make of it what you will. a wife beater isnt always a child beater and often does it so no one else knows. but what would I know?
All I said was why should a mother have more rights than a father.
ther are battered husbands too you know

What I can't understand, for the life of me, is why some dads have no interest in their children when the marriage breaks down. My dh's 'father' left them when dh was 13. He always paid his child support (the bare minimum and not a penny more, even though he is a very rich man and these were pre CSA days), but had not contact with them at all for three years. No phone calls, no cards at birthdays or xmas. He left the country. He now has a very intermittant links with them but knows almost nothing about them, doesn't know that dh has CLL for example, often cant remember his gramd childrens names.

How can people be like this? And MIL never said anything against him, she just let the boys find out what he was like on their own. Dh describes him as 'someone I have met.'

Mandy, a wife beather is scum. the lowest of the low. they should be locked up for assault. And to let you children near one, unsupervised is asking for him to lash out at them.

No one's arguing with you on that point Mandy. Sorry GA, but just want the debate to move forward, not endlessly go round in circles.

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I know that...all I am trying to say is dads have rights too!!! they arnt all bad!

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