What does everyone think of Fathers 4 Justice?

[starrynight]

I only ask because my sister is being terrorised by her ex who was violent toward her throughout her pregnancy (she left when babe was 1 mth old & lived in a refuge for about 2 years - he was about to beat her up only 4 wks after having a Caesarean).

It seems to me she has no rights at all - He disappeared for a year and then turned up demanding to see his son, hasn't paid a penny maintainance, is basically disruptive and manipulative. She has been forced to go to mediation (where she was removed from the room for her own safety) but has to continue with it or 'it will look bad'. He is denying all the abuse and although police were called he was never charged.

Her solicitor and the mediator are telling her that basically, he will get access to her son & within 3-6months will be entitled to have him for weekends. I think this is appalling - where are the rights of the child?

Anyway, I can't help thinking that Fathers 4 Justice are sheltering and supporting fathers like him - he is a fantastically manipulative man and could convince anyone that she is a hysterical liar. Who is there to protect the women and children???

The thing with f4j is that they are actually extremely good at PR. They have succeeded in creating the impression that most mothers out there are wilfully and heartlessly denying contact to the fathers of their kids for no good reason, when in fact only 10% of couples ever go to court, and of that 10% only a very small minority of men (and women) are denied contact. The major problem most custodial parents have, is trying to get absent parents to have more frequent, consistent and reliable contact with their children.

I know a guy who can be relied upon never to turn up for his contact visits. Then he'll ring out of the blue on a Friday night and say "I'll be round tomorrow for the kids". Their mother will say "No you won't, because I've arranged to take them to x. You were supposed to come for them last week and they waited for you for 3 hours, and you didn't turn up, you let them down. When can you next come?" So then he will scream at her about her not letting him see his kid, go down the pub and complain to everyone about how his bitch ex denies him access, and incredibly, everyone believes him. And I just think that of all the father's organisations out there, F4J, is the spiritual home of fathers like him.

I agree with pretty much everything everyone said - and good to know i'm not the only one who feels like this!

Also, I am shocked that the national blood service have allowed someone to give 15 pints of blood a year!! That is 20 donations a year - almost 2 a month..I'm only allowed to donate once every 3 months. hmmm.

As a trivial aside, he probably donates plasma and not whole blood. you can do this twice a month with no probelms. I did this for a while, I mateched a child with leukemia si they would call me in as I was needed. i have donated over 80 units, most of that over a few years. It is nothing, no big deal at all.

Can I just say that my BIL has been living apart from his ds for 10 years now in which time he has met and married my sister. His ex partner has denied him access and messed about with any access she has granted him for years! He is the most gentle and sweet man you could meet and obviously adores his ds. He has spent many thousands on trying to get more and regular contact and still he hasnt managed to keep his ds for an overnight stay. His ds is 12 now and is allowed to go to scout camps/school trips but not stay with his dad despite really wanting to. He has only once managed to take his ds to see his gparents in Blackpool by simply not telling her he was going although previously has tried to be upfront and honest about what they would be doing. It would appear that the times she is amenable to any access is when she has a new boyfriend on the scene and is "in love".

Perfect case of psycho-controlling mummy being a cow!

Agree with Caligula, they're a bunch of

I agree that fathers who are abusive to their ex's and/or kids shouldn't be allowed access.

What I meant when I said I agreed with Marne is that you cannot just look at the group as a whole and say 'no they should all be denied access'.
Yes I agree that some of the men in that group are in it for the wrong reasons but you have to remember that some of them will have bene denied access for no good reason at all and will be desperate to regain access to their kids.

My dad joined a similar group when trying to get custody of me and my brothers. Yes there was the odd bloke that did have a few extreme suggestions but my dad mainly used their group to gain info on things that may help his case and so did most of the other blokes there.

I for one am very grateful that my dad had some support at that time else he may well have not been here now.

F4j have a 'woman?s arm' called Purple hearts that embarrassed themselves on Radio 4 a while back spewing out some idiot rubbish. They misrepresented a bunch of stats from an NSPCC report to support their claim that 'statistically children were more at risk with their mothers than fathers'. I spoke to the NSPCC after this and they were outraged. F4J have a blatantly misogynous agenda that says basically all women are innately evil and should be put in their place like they was in the good o' days when men weren?t afraid to give them a slap or two. Hence the beery machismo. The media don?t support them and they're in trouble because of it. At last they provide a service for the force of good! There are plenty of other fathers groups to get behind who lobby with women?s groups for better equality in all areas of family law. F4J aren?t interested in what?s best for the children, just in venting their dirty flabby spleen.

I think fathers should have more rights and say in their children's upbringing. What bothers me about F4J is that they don't seem to be able to seperate the issues from the other problems such as domestic violence etc and take all comers into their fold and ask no questions.
If they want to nbe seen as a credible group then they need to offload the lunatic fringe and weed out the nutters whose only agenda is control of their ex-partner to the detriment of the children.

well there was a time when courts would almost always side with the mother. some mothers took advantage of this and stopped contact just to be spiteful. so is it any wonder that this sort of group was formed? sadly there probably are lots of men who should not be granted access, seizing the oppurtunity now to join this group. others just may be plain desperate. as much as i love to blame men for everything, i dont think i do on this one. each case is individual and should be treated as such.

I see your point Nightowl but the majority of women aren?t 'spiteful' - that's what F4J would like us to think. It plays to a very deep and pervasive misogyny latent in society and we should all check ourselves before accepting it on face value. You can?t legislate on how people conduct themselves in failing relationships. That?s down to more basic social skills. It's always going to be difficult - but when you have a men?s group actively blaming women as a species (I know, I know) for all their woes then the conservative agenda is explicit. It's everywhere on their forums and on the Melanie Phillips forums too.

I wish there were some way to make contact easier for both parties so that it did not become a tool for them to beat each other with. I have a friend whose ex got so angry with him for being 10 mins late that she sent him home (4 hr drive) without seeing his kids for another fortnight. Who does this benefit? If there were some neutral ground where the handover could take place the dads who don't show up would be monitored and the mothers who make things difficult would not have to opportunity.

My SIL wants to stop her ex having contact with my niece as it makes my other neice jealous as she only has one father. Apparantly it makes weekends difficult to plan (nieces birth father travels from Brighton to Leeds every fortnight for seven years which makes his weekends rather difficult to plan also I imagine).

DW is a matrimonial solicitor and I used to practice in that area, and I used to and she continues to come across F4J and whilst somewhere within the base of the idea the concept of equal rights for fathers sounds great it's the wrong starting point.

As has been said previously and as is re-iterated at every court hearing the primary rights are those of the child, or children, not those of the parents, either side.

F4J continually forget this and the evidence of experts that a child needs a place to call home for the majority of the week, which is why care shared equally has never been a big winner.

F4J are viewed generally by the courts as intermeddling in cases where generally no one has ridden rough shod over the father's rights and they are there just to extend the case by raising emotive issues which again detract from the central issue, the rights of the child.

Parents have responsibilities not rights. A word of caution is that the money and contact aspects of a case are completely different more often than not it is mother's who say he hasn't paid so he can't see DS/DD this won't wash.

However in my experience when F4J get involved it damages the father's case rather than helping given they are now known for stunts ratehr than sound legal advice.

IME a good dad, like me, has no rights at all. The mum holds all the power and rights. The system should recognise that each case is different but it doesn't.

dads have tons of rights, the only fathers who are denied contact are ones who would possibly harm their children or exes. Even if my ex has no contact with ds for years, never shows an interest in seeing him grow up and never pays any maintenance he can just turn up 5 years down the line and I have to give him access.

But, I suppose it would be possible for me to make it so difficult for him that he doesn't actually get the contact he is entitled to and there's not much anyone could do.

Again not your rights but child's right to know their father even if he's been rubbish for 10 years doesn't ds/dd have a right to get to know where they came from? They will eventually want to.

Yes the parent with care (not always the mum) canmake it difficult but the latest swathe of legislation now means that there are ways to force the parent with care to co-operate with the one who doesn't.

Each case is different but the core remains the same children first.

I believe that our children come first. My eldest dd (now 8) is not allowed to mention me to her mum, or tell her anything about our visits as her mum "get's upset" 5 years after we separated. Her mum also tried everything she could think of to stop me seeing our dd. Why? Was I violent or aggressive? Never. Was I abusive or hurtful in any way? Never. The reason was that she couldn't accept that I couldn't stand to be with her anymore. She accused me of adultery and sexual harrassment to make me out to be an unfit father.

But in answer to the question in the titlem fathers for justice are a complete joke.

hmmm, just read my post back. I wouldn't try and stop my ex seeing beanie, it might have come over that way in my post, I just meant it would be possible for me to make it hard for him if that's what I wanted to do.

I know there are mothers who would do anything to stop their ex getting contact, and for no good reason, but mostly it's mums trying to get useless men to see their kids.

I am all for F4J(if the father has not been voilent in any way). They would have been great for my dad many years ago when he tried very hard to gain access to myself my brother and sister. My father was a good man not beating or harrasing my mother, but she made life very difficult for him to see us, and it eventually ended up in a custody battle in court, where my mother got full custody and it was at my mothers discretion when he got visits to see us, which was hardly ever. I have regular contact with my dad now but sadly I have no contact with my mother!

Oh, yes, Bob Geldof's other vehicle for harrassing people . . .

Dads are alone when it comes to getting access to their children. Mostly its spiteful mothers thinking of themselves and using the kids to get what they want. I agree it is quite a different animal if the father is violent (to the children)or appears not to care for them, using them to get access to the mother. Sorry to say but selfish mums have their own club 'KIDS FOR CHEQUES' DOWN RIGHT LEGAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN! Im all of Dads seeing their children. FATHERS FOR JUSTICE, bring it on. Eh hem, i'm a mum by the way..

Mostly its spiteful mothers thinking of themselves and using the kids to get what they want

Guardianangel, I'm sorry but that's a load of crap
mostly it's mums trying their hardest to get the dad involved and do the best for their kids. In a VERY small number of cases mums make it difficult or impossible for the dad to see his kids but you can't lump all mums together like that.

And why is it only different if the father is violent to his children. what if he's violent to their mum, or their friends, or anyone else?

I knew that one would up the stakes!!. Beanie, if the dads dont care and dont want access, why bother? I know, I know, its for the kids. But hey, its what you think the kids want and not what is really best for them.

dont like them tbh - if you want to see you kids you go the right way about it - not by commiting illegal acts to get yourself noticed.