What does everyone think of Fathers 4 Justice?

[starrynight]

I only ask because my sister is being terrorised by her ex who was violent toward her throughout her pregnancy (she left when babe was 1 mth old & lived in a refuge for about 2 years - he was about to beat her up only 4 wks after having a Caesarean).

It seems to me she has no rights at all - He disappeared for a year and then turned up demanding to see his son, hasn't paid a penny maintainance, is basically disruptive and manipulative. She has been forced to go to mediation (where she was removed from the room for her own safety) but has to continue with it or 'it will look bad'. He is denying all the abuse and although police were called he was never charged.

Her solicitor and the mediator are telling her that basically, he will get access to her son & within 3-6months will be entitled to have him for weekends. I think this is appalling - where are the rights of the child?

Anyway, I can't help thinking that Fathers 4 Justice are sheltering and supporting fathers like him - he is a fantastically manipulative man and could convince anyone that she is a hysterical liar. Who is there to protect the women and children???

i dont have stats or much law knowledge - but i have experience and my experience is that if a mum - who leaves after fking her husbands best friend - leaves then refuses to let her husband see the children and makes up lies about his non existant abusive relationship, if she insists on the children going to counceling becuase she knows social services will hold off on the court case until this is done, she misses the councilling then insists on it being set up again, to drag it out. she played the system for 5 years and the poor dad who has been to every single hearing, court date, councilling phychiatric session set up - becuase only becuae he loves his children. anyone interested more in having any kind oflife without all the hoops and hurdles he has had to go through would have given up by now. and all this becuase she is simply not a nice person. the two oldest children do not know their father and he always says " one day -they will come looking for me and i can tell them how much i tried to see them"

all i am saying is that society thnks of mums as the hard done by ones when a marriage breaks up. and its not always the case. its not always the man who has committed adultery or bashed her about.

am just advocating the position of the child. the childs relationship to its father is seperate than the relationship its parents have - and although every mumsnetter is eminantly sensible, everyone without exception that i know who has had a failed relationship which invovles a child. uses that child to some degree as leverage. thats not statistical data, its not based on my hidden law degree from the invisible university in Ankh Morpok. but my experience. and i am entitled to comment on my experiences in fact we all draw from them

i have a friend who has not seen his kids for 2 years, he is one of the nicest people i know, very kind and caring, his ex wife is a maniac and has accused him of alsorts which has been followed up with the police and was all found to be a pack of lies, at his most depressed time he joined fathers for justice, he did lots of fundraising and marches, he brought all the t-shirts and santa outfit, he did a stall in southampton to raise money, and generally went on about it, until he met one of the founders, he wanted to know how the money they raised was being used and could he see a copy of the accounts,he was told this was confidential, he has now left f4j and does not support there cause as he believes it is all a scam.

GuardianAngel, thank you for being so kind! you summarised better than I ever could. all i can summarised it with is .... no one could have been more gullable/stupid, mind you, my friends at the time had also been taken in by his charming ways. not everything went terribly wrong, I have the most beautiful thing, my dd! I hope she will be ok

That?s all fine Custardo, I don?t doubt your story but it's just the kind of unsubstantiated and highly emotive story F4J use to rack up any debate into an anecdotal slagging match. Lets be clear here, no one would disagree with your story on face value, so say otherwise to attempt straw man tactics to win an argument, which invalidates your stance immediately. F4J are demanding new legislation but all they have to offer in support are anecdotal stories of the kind you mention. Statistics are vitally important in an argument such as this as they give the true picture of what is happening. No one doubts that there are horror stories, but like Caligula states, 90% of families come to an amicable agreement. F4J have a purely revisionist agenda when it comes to women. They are not interested in the children - only in controlling women. And 'society' doesn?t think mums are hard done by, society is made up of sentient human beings (50% of which are women) who can appreciate the nuance of such situations. Another straw man tactic.

Everyone is entitled to comment on their own experiences, but what we're not entitled to do is demand that the law of the country be changed just to deal with what's happened to us. A state simply cannot legislate for every hard case. My experience is that my xp makes no effort to see, phone or have any contact with his kids. But I don't from that, conclude that all xp's are like that - I know that my children have been unlucky, they're some of the minority whose fathers have some kind of difficulty in functioning as fathers. But I believe that the majority of separated parents do their best to put the interests of the children first, and I strongly believe that for those who don't, the law should not be changed to the disadvantage of the majority, just because of the mad behaviour of a minority, be they men or women. And the problem with f4j, is that the world revolves around them and the law of the country should be changed just for them. It's a starting point which I believe is infantile. Whereas some of the more mature organisations take a more thoughtful starting point, of how is society changing, how can that be reflected in the law, how will it benefit children, etc. etc. It's a less eye-catching approach, but a more grown up one.

Custardo - quite right! All the friends I have who have split from partners have at some point disagreed about access/visits etc. They all live normal boring lives, no drama no domestic violence but in each case the mum has laid down the law and changed things to suit her! And the dads have all really had to accept the changes.

When you have two adults with different priorities/lifestyles/views then it is inevitable that their ideas will conflcit and it seems to be that the mum always has the upper hand and it is HER views/priorties etc. that determine what will happen. Even if she is being blatantly unfair.

(Disclaimer - based on my experiences,wtih my friends).

Not all fathers are nutters and not all mothers are pure with only the interest of the child at heart.

Has anyone examined why fathers are not interested in their own kids once the adult relationship has broken down. Any takers?

No one was ever arguing they were..

that was in reply to gomez

Now let me think.
1.Everytime the father comes to the door , the mother rants and raves about money and what she wants to buy.
2.She causes endless problems with any new family that may transpire.

But Gomez, what kind of laying down the law? People always make vague complaints and then when you question them further, it turns out that the mother in question had requested that visiting times are kept to, are regular, and are consistent, so that she can plan her life as well. Is that unfair? Or are you not talking about that?

This is a debate very close to heart my ex husband was very mentally abusive and had issues with drink and drugs. he was rarely physically abusive because I was so terrified of him I never let anything get that far. He turfed me and my daughter out on to the streets when she was a few months old and said he wanted nothing to do with us. Thinking at the time that any father was better than no father I managed to talk him into mantaining contact. I now know that was probably the worst mistake I have ever made.

His bullying presence in our lives drove me to a suicidal breakdown meaning the first year of my daughter's life was comletely dysfunctional.

He turns up for access when he feels like it, last week he didn't come as he had housework to do!!!

If her dad doesn't turn up she sobs hysterically and her behaviour deteriorates, if she does see him she comes back sobbing hysterically and her behaviour is very difficult for the next few days.

My daughter is in counselling at the age of three due to the effect her dad's presence has on our family.

I try very hard to put on a happy family act for our daughter, her dad is welcome in our house, we phone him, send pictures, invite him for tea and yet the hwole situation is a disaster that I have created by asking a man to be invlolved in my daughter's life.

Well trixie, one of the biggest problems for lone parents is that many ex partners pay no maintenance at all, or only a fraction of what they have agreed to or have been ordered to. So why shouldn't a mother mention it each time?

And again, "causes endless problems" - these things are so vague and surely cannot be legislated about? (Although this govt would try, I'm sure - seems to think it can legislate every other area of human behaviour.)

Maintenance don't even get me started on that, but I have never threatened to stop her seeing him, (although have been sorely tempted)even when i was having to sell everything I owned to pay off his debts.

He on the other hand tried to deduct from his mantainece for times he couldn't make it to see her!

TSaP - awful situation for you. It comes down to the current fashion that a really bad father is better than no father at all. I have never believed that. And I've never seen any evidence to back it up. Although there must be some out there, although it wouldn't be such a strong principle in the family courts.

ooh now that is nasty. deducting for loss of visiting time. NASTY

No not really Caligula. Things like :
(1)it is not convienent for you to have a midweek visit as it means I have to send lots of stuff to school so they will stop. I could collect the stuff from the house if you prefer - no still to much hassle.

(2)In the summer I like to make plans and do things at the weekends so it is real pain to have to be home for you to collect them mid-afternoon. So you can only have them for Sunday tea in the winter.

(3) Now she is at school you can't have her overnight any night except Friday or Saturday. Well can't I take her to school just the same as you. No.

(4) Please don't take him to your parents the dog scares him. But we visited when we were together. Well we are not now, so don't.

Different people BTW and I am friends with the mum in most cases not the dad. Think it is all a bit harsh tbh. It is supposed to be fun for the children not the parents. My DH and I disagree about things but as we are still together I don't always get 'my way' - it seems to be when the parents are apart the mums see that as a personal affront not just life.

My DH was asked to take his 14 yr old daughter in hand after years of being ignored and having his decisions and punishments over turned by X. Silly DH got me to agree to have her for 6 weeks to separate her from a fella she was seeing who was 17. We suggested that the £600 per month given for her upkeep be suspended until she returned to her mother. (funny, the mother all of a sudden could cope with wayward child)! Allowed the situation to continue with the boy at the thought of losing cash!!!!!!!!!!!

I may be misreading you Guardianangel and if I am apologise but I think it very unreasonble that he would phone me up the night before and say I don't feel like coming tomorrow so I am not turning up and I will be deducting £100 from your maintenance (which he was fiddling anyway!) as well.

Oh Gomez, the best one was when asked whether stp son could stay on at step grandmothers for a few more days as he was having a great time.
ANSWER: No i need to buy him shoes this weekend!! Needless to say ss was in tears.

Sorry TSP. I wasnt being sarcastic about the money from your point of view. I was in agreement with you. This is something totally different.

TSAP, I am so sorry that you and your daughter especially are suffering so much. my heart goes out to you both. this is exactly what I feared it would happened to us if i allowed him contact. your situation sounds similar to mine. when i allowed contact, i had to be on sickness leave for all that he was putting us through, turning up high on drugs, falling uncounsciuos in front of our dd when unsupervised! this is why i have said no to all his requests to come to an agreement between me and him. it is not hard, a bad dad is not better than no dad at all. I am glad I have not listened to that argument. she is now enjoying her childhood and stability. i thinbk it will better this way and we will deal with any issues when she is old enough to ask the questions. a loving safe stable envirnment is better start than bad father trauma in my eyes

sorry guardinangel , having spent most of the morning on the phone to the CSA I am a bit touchy.

oh bless you. They are a night mare aint they.
Look after your self. x

Consistancy helps too.