What does everyone think of Fathers 4 Justice?

[starrynight]

I only ask because my sister is being terrorised by her ex who was violent toward her throughout her pregnancy (she left when babe was 1 mth old & lived in a refuge for about 2 years - he was about to beat her up only 4 wks after having a Caesarean).

It seems to me she has no rights at all - He disappeared for a year and then turned up demanding to see his son, hasn't paid a penny maintainance, is basically disruptive and manipulative. She has been forced to go to mediation (where she was removed from the room for her own safety) but has to continue with it or 'it will look bad'. He is denying all the abuse and although police were called he was never charged.

Her solicitor and the mediator are telling her that basically, he will get access to her son & within 3-6months will be entitled to have him for weekends. I think this is appalling - where are the rights of the child?

Anyway, I can't help thinking that Fathers 4 Justice are sheltering and supporting fathers like him - he is a fantastically manipulative man and could convince anyone that she is a hysterical liar. Who is there to protect the women and children???

And yes, of course some mothers are manipulative. But the F4J shenanigans has made it look as if that is the major problem in family break-up. And it just isn't. It is a problem for a minority of families. And while I have every sympathy for decent fathers who genuinely want to have contact with their children and are stopped by loony mothers, I have no sympathy at all with the current view that absent parents should have rights without responsibilities.

I think they are a bunch of extremists who have done a huge disservice to children as the courts now seem to be running scared of them. The family courts are supposed to operate in the best interests of the child, not attempt to split them in two.

There are reputable groups promoting fatherhood - the fact that they choose to join this bunch of self-promoters says volumes about their attitude to their family. They are putting their own needs first. And I hear that at least some of them have been denied contact for very good reasons. Great cloak for violent or controlling men to hide behind rather than address the behaviour that led to the court order. And a great opportunity for violent or abusive men to seek to control women and children who escape them.

Personally when my parents divorced I would have been very distressed by any attempt to split me between two homes.

Residence is not a competition to see who is the best parent, it's about the needs of the child. And most often it's the mother who does the bulk of the childcare.

Great post Caligula - hadn't seen it when I posted.

My parents split up amicably and agreed on joint custody as both of them wanted to see us equally. We stayed a week at my mums then a week at my dads, it is a pain but all family break down is and I was happy in the knowledge that both parents loved us and looked after us.

Obviously that cannot always be the case, esp when violence is an issue. But men can play just an active role if they are willing and able.

Message withdrawn

Exactly weesaidie. When they're willing and able.

Agree with Caligula here, good posts.

Caligula, when employers are willing to pay the same salary for reduced working hours, then a lot of fathers will be happy to be at home more. I earned over £30k a year when in my first marriage, my wife didn't want to work because she felt I was "the man and that's your job", her earning potential was about half mine anyway. She also spent everyday at the shopping centre buying clothes for herself that she never wore. I'm not exaggerating, by the way. I worked long hours to keep our family in a good lifestyle and she pissed it all up the wall. If i'd have chucked in my job, she'd have happily lived on benefits because she feels the world owes her a favour.

But I submit that she is not in the majority.

HD, I think we've already established that your x is a loon!

That is true, Caligula. Not the best of examples, eh? LOL

Im back, Can any of you tell me who these other groups are that are fighting for justice?

mmm,not doing a good job then, are they? Caligula, ive just been catching up on the thread, blimey girl, you should change your name to jugular.tee hee!

Well for a start there's:

Families Need Fathers
and
Shared Parenting Information Group

ok, i have heard of families need fathers. My dh look to support from them when x was playing silly games and hurting the kids. USELESS!

I dont like the law at all. I think that unfit fathers, get to see their kids and the law is prepared to put all these children at the risk with the right of the child argument. The only think I am sure of in my life is that my dd should not see her dad, unless ther is a miracle and he stops taking class a drugs, driving whislt disqualified (stolen and dodgy vehicles by the way) off his head on drinks and drugs,and being extremely aggressive and abusive towards me, no phisical violence but that just because i did not confront him too much. he has a long history of criminal convictions (98 in total: burgleries, driving offences, firearms and so on). I can go with the list of why he should never have contact as he has put my dd life in danger already with unsuperivised access. but none of this seems to matter to the law, warned by my solicitors, if he applied for contact. he has no job, he lives in the streets/sqauts etc

I agree with all the negative being said about F4J. as they would happily support his argument. but luckly for me he is refusing to go via the law. by the way, there are a couple of court orders to stop him contacting us et, so he has to go via the courts.

Solicitors said to me that he persued this all the way, he would get some form of access as it is in the child interest to know the father no matter how bad he is.

how dare this law assume that I am the spiteful mother tryng to get my revenge? and that knowing the father is better than anything else unless they have been really violent?

Barb, was he like this when you met? If not what mad him into this nightmare?

GA - does it matter what made him like that? you are weird

Bean, mind your business, she doesnt have to answer. There is a point to my question.

GA, I can answeer no problem! Lets have all it out how stupid I was and in love. I knew about his past but he was so charming and said that he was a changed man after meeting me!! he also told me a lot of lies about the circumstancess which drove him to it. lots of lies, he made out so many things like he was australian but never been there all his life. the thing is he belives them all himself, i think he has something wrong with him. and then after 2 good years, as soon as I was pregnant with the child he really wanted, he started slowly to go back to his old ways. I thought the love of a woman could change him, that he was never given a chance and he was the environment blah balah blah.....

GA the other father's group out there which I think is doing some quite good work is fathers direct. Will try and find a link.

Like the Jugular name

In some ways I suppose what F4J have done is at least raised the issue of how crap the family courts are. I do agree that there are some situations which are really quite unjustifiable, like giving care and control to women when the men have been primary carers for the last 5 years or whatever and so re-inforcing the idea that looking after children is primarily women's, rather than men's responsibility and leaving responsible fathers who have actually given up careers etc., to bring up their kids, feeling incredulous that in this day and age the law can treat them like this. And I suppose it is good that these cases have been brought out into the open and challenged. But their solutions are simply not right, for children or for society as a whole.

Keep hammering home the stats Caligula - it?s a long thread and the reminders help. It seems tho that we're going round in circles alot of the time. Are we all agreed that women are not innately evil, spiteful or loony (you have the veto here HD)? Do we all agree that this kind of misogyny shouldn?t go unchallenged whenever it crops up? All F4J roads lead to it.

And those cases are minority - teeny teeny teeny number. There are much more widespread problems out there when it comes to contact issues.

Barb, One of those romances that you perhaps deep down knew might not work but threw caution to the wind and it all went horribly wrong. OUCH!Oh i hope you find happiness soon.

Where's Beansmum gone, come back, i didnt mean to hurt your feelings..

And equality is an ideal. It doesn?t exist in the real world cos we don?t live in an ideal world. While it's good that some cases of injustice get aired, there are scores that don't for both genders. As it stands F4J have only a rhetorical link with the word 'justice'.