Should parents be allowed to SMACK their child?........ Debate on ITV ........ THIS MORNING

[RTKangaMummy]

Smacking

When John Saunders' son began playing up during a shopping trip, he told the boy to behave himself. But the little boy who had rammed a trolley into his older sister, took no notice so his father gave him a slap on the legs. But only four days later John answered a knock at his front door and was confronted by two police officers. John, discovered he was under investigation for assault after a fellow shopper reported him. John joins us today, along with Denise Robertson and Carolyne Willow from the Children's Rights Alliance who believes that there should be a total ban on smacking.

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Smacking always contentious isn't it. As for my two ds's a tap on the bottom has been used and although I don't like it and like to say to all those mumsnetters who disagree with it, you are either all superwomen who never lose your cool or have the most incredibly well-behaved, children who always, always do as they're told. Ask most teachers, who are legally in loco parentis what it's like to face off to a class of 11 yr olds who swear abuse and hit them and then say you can't touch me or you'll be prosecuted. There may be a fine line between a smack and abuse in some people's opinions, but banning smacking will not stop abuse ever. I will bring my children up how I see fit and sometimes I may not feel I'm a very caring or good mother, but they love me as I do them and hopefully as everyone out here in the US tells me they're awesome children, so can't be doing it all wrong

There is actually a point to the banning of smacking. I think website explains it very well Sorry I can't do links:

www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk/

Fairymum - though I dislike the idea of smacking children and all other living creatures like a few people on here I have done it when I've just lost it after a particularly horrid day when I've just had enough. I've hated myself for it as all it's taught DS is that it's ok to hit out in anger, something I keep telling him is not acceptable. I've found that so many people repeatedly tell their kids that violence is wrong then smack them. Huh?

I was smacked according to my mum but remember only one occasion and I think I only remember that because I particularly deserved it. TBH the thought of disappointing my parents was usually enough to keep me in line, that lasts you see whereas a smack is over quite quickly isn't it. So which is more cruel?

Even though I don't agree with smacking I just can't abide the thought that someone who doesn't know me or my children can tell me how I can and can't discipline them. WTF has it got to do with them?

I totally agree with the poster that linked the lack of being able to discipline children to the crappy society in which we now live. There are an awful lot of kids around that have a complete lack of respect for other people and their property. And like she said in my day that wouldn't have been tolerated. There is so obviously a link. Do something wrong and the worst that will happen to you is youll get grounded for a couple of days which you'll ignore anyway as you care diddlysquat for what your parents think. There are so many kids out there that have had little or no discipline that are a digrace and it'll continue with their children and so on.

And at the end of the day there are so many things out there that are illegal but it still happens. So you ban smacking. What happens? Nothing. It's not inforcable. It just makes decent, loving, good parents angry.

Take a look at LJsmum's post in the behaviour/development section on the swimming incident thread. See what happens when there's no discipline. Talking just doesn't work on a lot of kids does it?

Pfer, you obviously haven't read from the website i linked to. As for a link between lack of smacking and unruly children. Eh...no. It's not an established link. I am always suprised on these threads how so many people just blatantly ignore the advice from child protection organisations like the NSPCC, numerous child psychologists and examples from other countries where smacking has been banned. . And of course all the Mumsnetters who come on here and don't smack their children, but yet they are nice well-behaved children. Actually, I would suggest that there is a link between smacking and lack of discipline. I don't think a child learns respect from being smacked. It doesn't teach you any morals,values or good way to solve conflicts. On the contrary. And why can't society tell you how to discipline your children? They tell you that you can't smack your husband or your dog, so why can't your child have the same rights?

Well I have smacked DS - hard a few times. Not premeditated - just lost it. And then felt sick. Still feel stick when I think about it in fact.

And what did it teach him? To hit back. Great.

On that last smacking thread I read on here a while ago someone said that smacking a child in that fashion was just an adult having a tantrum. And for some reason that has really stuck with me and I haven't smacked since.

Somone also recommded a book called "1-2-3 Magic" and that system is really working here. In fact on getting a "that's 1" the other day, DS (4) answered back so I said "that's 2" and he replied with a slap (!) to me, said "that's 3" and went to the step!! So then he got another 3 for hitting!! We are getting the message through!

I didn't think it should be legislated against but I do now. Because some of us do just give our kids a light tap but for some it's a lot more. And there is no way to measure that so just making it illegal has to be the only way to go.

When I was growing up neighbours of ours were really strict with their 2 (adopted) children. The mother would tell the father of their behavious when he came in from work and if they had done anything bad he would take off his belt and use that on them. And he was a policeman.

That sort of thing needs legislating against.

ok, so you've got a very badly behaved child, you don't smack, yet you've tried all other forms of discipline and nothing's worked. what do you do? wait a few years till they're in young offenders and let the government deal with them?

if you read one of my previous posts you'll see that there are a few people my age who when we were yonger were always fighting etc and their kids are just the same. Sadly the only language they understand is the one spoken with fists.

And established link or not...what can be the other cause? IMO discipline is the problem or rather lack of it. As a youngster I would never have dreamed of behaving the way the kids where I live do. I'd probably have been smacked, but it was never the smacks that bothered me. It was the look of dissappointment on my parents faces that stopped me.

You know I don't agree with smacking, yet I can understand that there will be kids out there that can't be reached by other forms of punishment no matter how hard the parents try. And for those parents what support and advice can you give? For those parents that lose their rag when they've gone way past the end of their tether and have smacked their child but are truely sorry what would you say to them when they have their children taken away because someone who doesn't even know them has jumped to the wrong conclusion (that the child is beaten)and called the police.

If I thought that anyone I knew was abusing their child I would call the authorities. But to me a smack every year to not abuse. Please don't make good parents feel like criminals for smacking a child that constantly runs into the road, or for tapping the hand of the child that keeps poking at the fire and will get burnt eventually without intervention.

and even though my kids aren't beaten and never will be I do know a member of my family who regularly smacks their daughter for misbehaving and how is the girl now? Ffff'd up. She misbehaves in a day more that my ds does in a year, her mother actually raised her hand to DS once and well let's just say there is no love lost there.........

Smacking IMO does not work. But I would not ever tell another parent that they can't give their child a tap to discipline them.

Pfer, if you read the link I posted you will see that in Sweden where there has been a ban on smacking, there is not a problem of parents being prosecuted for the occasional smack like you outline. I think this is a pretty hysterical take on it and completely missing the point of why smacking should be banned. It is not to take children away from parents or put parents in prison left,right and centre. I still think you haven't read the link I posted or you didn't understand what you were reading.And I think you are contradicting yourself in your post. If the language of fists is the only language the kids you mention understand. Aren't these the unruly kids whose lack of discipline (smacking) is causing this behaviour according to your earlier posts?

For Goodness Sake. If you've read my threads you'll see I don't like smacking and in general I don't think it works.

However, I do not think that someone who doesn't know Miss Jones next door should be able to put her kids on an at risk register as the nosey old biddy across the road once saw the son get a smacked bum for being particularly naughty. This happenned ok. Not to me, but to a close friend. It was awful to see and it just shouldn't have happened.

Even if you make it illegal what good will it do? Those poor kids that are being abused will still be abused. It'll just make for a longer list of at risk kids who really aren't at risk and traumatise parents and children alike as well as the many accusing fingers they'll have pointed at them making matters worse.

It's all down to your individual point of view isn't it? I personally don't think it works, but that's just for my children. I do however feel it quite possibly worked for me. I am a respectful, law abiding, helpful, warm human being. I was smacked. Regularly it hasn't turned me into a monster. I was never afraid of my parents either. I loved them dearly and still do. It was the love of them that stopped my misbehaving.

Basically, I don't like smacking, but I won't report, say my DH for smacking ds1 if he's given DS2 a bit of a going over. Would you?

oh, and the kids i was talking about are not disciplined at all. yet they see it as their god given right to go out and beat up others, there are no consequences to their actions. they have not been hit, yet they hit. why?

Of course you are not put on the at-risk register for once smacking someone on the bottom. Have you actually seen the file on this? I think it's a shame that these threads always end up with someone thinking that what we really want is to throw all parents who give an occasional smack on the bottom in prison or take their children away. You are so missing the point and not seing the bigger picture.

Which is?

Which is explained in the link I posted earlier. NSPCC outlines their reasons for wanting a ban and the myths that more parents will be prosecuted etc.

Anyway, found this link on Femail. If you read from the daughter's point of view, she is still smacked and she is 26! A whole new thread? Lol!

Oh, can post links...but there is weird article about it on femail.com today

26? Holy Schmo! That's Baaaaaaddd. That's a whole new thing isn't it.

Fairymum, look to a certain extent I agree with you. I just worry about the other things that will inevitably happen if the word 'illegal' is added to a smacked bum. I've seen some of the fall out from this and it can devastate families.

Children should be protected at all costs, but also at what cost?

My final point on this is that I firmly believe it would be impossible to enforce a law like this.

NO

And my last point is that the ban will come, but it just takes time for the UK to catch up with other civilised societies on the issues of childhood.

Civilised? You have a funny view of what a civilised society looks like. I don't smack my kids either, never will. But as for "a ban will come"....you sound unpleasantly like a fundamentalist fanatic. In my view you will have a hard time taking away the right of British parents to "civilise" their own children as they judge best. This isn't Sweden.

You don't learn respect by being smacked or hit. You can effectively discipline children without ever using violence. I entirely dispute the suggestion that there are children out there for whom other forms of discipline cannot reach. That is simply not true. Parents (or carers) are responsible for how their children behave, unless those children have a disorder that means they are unable to behave normally.
A ban on hitting children sends out a message to everyone that it is not acceptable. Of course it can't be fully enforced (neither can speeding, dropping litter, underage drinking) but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be there.
The reason people behave so badly today is because no one has taken the time or made the effort to show them how to like and respect themselves, let alone other people.

The only way a ban is justifiable is if a majority of people are in favour of it. Are they?

That's very democratic MOM, given that we currently have a Government controlling our destiny that the majority of us didn't even vote for! .

when I look at my generation and the way we were raised (in general) there was a lot of smacking going on - I got smacked, not because my parents were abusive but because I'd done something way out of order and had ignored verbal chastisements. Am I and my peers pyschological, introverted wrecks with ruined lives because of poor parenting? No, far from it - society has changed dramatically from when I was a teenager. Of course we misbehaved but whereas it was practically unheard of for a kid to tell a teacher to eff off now it seems language like that is prevalent in schools - there again discipline in schools was very much in evidence in the 60's. Yeah, we look back and say 'that Gleamer was a right old bastard' but as for lasting damage, forget it!
No-one can convince me that the obvious lack of respect for people and property these days is not due to a total lack of discipline in some homes.
We're not talking about ritual beatings here, we're talking about a slapped hand or bottom when a child is way out of line. The majority of us don't want to smack our kids, it's not a hobby fgs. Of course not all children need disciplining with a smack every time in the same way that 'talking it through' will simply not get through to other kids.
I baulk at the government stepping into my living room and telling me what to do there - next they will be handing out weekly menus and shopping lists to deal with child obesity. The government can only advise on parenting any further than that and I think they will find themselves in very shaky territory.

and with that I really must PARP

And two wrongs ALWAYS make a right!!!!

I agree with everything Jools said... as I recall saying before, you can't just issue some blunt instrument of a parenting manual a la Tanya Byron, use the law as a cattle prod to force everyone to comply and then use the media to demonize everyone who doesn't. There is a distinct whiff of bullshit about all this.

And PARP. And I mean it this time!!!!