Come and have a pop at the NCT... how we love to loathe 'em

[volunteervole]

Why does everyone love to hate the NCT? Seriously, why?

Open up the Times today and you have Melanie Reid spouting about homebirths and casually chucking in a nasty reference to the NCT making women feel like crap. A quick search on MN reveals complaint after complaint along the lines of: "Oh the NCT, don't get me started", "Bloody NCT, what do they know?", "NCT bunch of smug bastards make me feel like rubbish", "Fleeced at an NCT sale" etc. etc.

I volunteer for the NCT (hence name changer here) and spend hours and hours each week running teas, putting pregnant people in touch with each other, hosting a website about local playgroups, trudging around in the evening delivering newsletters ... and so on. All for an organisation which seems to be popularly loathed. How is it that the NCT has such a spectacularly bad reputation? Am I wasting my time?

Well that's news to me . Perhaps we will all learn a bit!

I am an NCT teacher. My aim is to have people like mistlethrush )post of 17th april) happy at the end of their classes.
I cover straightforward and assisted birth and elective and emergency c/s.
I hope all parents get the birth they want whatever that might be. I also am a midwife and currently work for the nhs as a nurse so definitely have a foot in 3 camps nct/nhs/parent.I hope nct ceo will explain a little more about what happens to the money that the charity raises as this seems to be a point of high discussion on mn.
galaxy, not a homebirther hippy incense burning or hairy sandal wearer(unless they are manolo blahniks! Some of the stereotypes make me chuckle

She often posts on forums at odd hours of the day or night and has personally responded to many an email from me.

I have now left my local branch (children older and work got too much) but this is my local branch of whom I am very proud. I left before this project started.

www.nctlittleducks.org/

However the downside of this is that coffee mornings have fallen by the wayside as there is no-one to host them. I personally found coffee mornings a lifeline when I moved into the area and knew no-one.

Yank, try the NCT - everyone's experiences are different and groups do vary. They /should/ be advocates to help you get the birth experience you want. Also, it may be worth talking to an independent midwife or at least a doula (there are several on mn). Being fat shouldn't prevent you getting the birth you want. I'm pretty overweight and had a home vbac. A friend once told me that experts never agree so the trick is to find an expert that agrees with you!

Hi - I am an antenatal teacher. I qualified last year and up until now have had a completely different career and only after having a crap first birth 9 yrs ago followed by a better one in hospital did I act on my interest in birth. I recently had my 3rd child at home which was a great experience but none of this impacts on my classes and what I hope my clients will take from them.

I think that you cannot judge NCT classes in general by looking at just one teacher just as much as you cannot judge a whole national organisation by the attitude of a particular set of volunteers. My classes aim to empower parents to feel confident in making choices surrounding birth and parenting based on relevant evidence that are right for them as a family. My personal opinions on things are not relevant - some facts are hard to deal with and are challenging - For example: the fact is that there isn't a magic pain relief pill for labour that is instant, reversible and has no side-effects for mum or baby and when mums choose to manage labour pain they have to make a choice which is right for them at the time. I respect the choices that my clients make and would never comment one way or another. I also believe that guilt is a wasted emotion and that no-one can make you feel guilty if you are confident in the fact that you have made an informed choice which was right for you at the time.

Anyway - enough rambling! Just my thoughts!

islandofsodor- what a great scheme. I think we have a church doing something similar in this area.

I was intrigued to see NCTCEO posting, and so, trying to work out if it really was Belinda, did a little search on her previous posts. Found this: more NCT bashing
which ran all around this subject last year. Except it really focussed on ante-natal classes, which I guess are most people's main contact with the NCT.
What I have been really interested to hear about on this thread are other volunteers' relationships with the NCT and the way they feel about the way the local branches fit with the centre. I would really love to hear NCTCEO's views on the way all this works. And wolfnipplechips had good questions too. And what about that webchat then?- what do you think?

I couldn't get on to an NCT antenatal course first time round but did a great postnatal one and also had a good antenatal class experience this time round. I'm sorry that both courses were a bit far away from me, the first was actually just outside the other end of the borough, the second in a neighbouring one. I would have liked this time to go to a refresher course but found the information useful even in a a course aimed at first timers.

Several of the others hoped to give birth in the birth centre of their nearest hospital, mine didn't have a birth centre.

I wanted to breastfeed both babies, but had already failed to do so at the beginning of my postnatal course first time round, this time I managed to after quite a lot of difficulty at the beginning. But the course tutors I encountered weren't at all judging of different choices or experiences - I was induced first time round.

I think it's due to the existence of organisations like the NCT as well as various others and this website that when I had problems second time round I was able to find my way through, and argue for what I wanted.

I'd really like to become more involved in my local NCT but most activity is in a different part of the borough - I live in a borough which has a very noticeable split between the middle class west and the poorer east, and despite being middle class myself I live in the east. It's also harder with two under two and working full time when I'm not on maternity leave. But those are things which are not easy to overcome for the organisation and any solution (more in my area, more for working mums) probably needs me to do something about it myself....

i think the NCT has to look at why there is still a negative image surrounding it. and those of us who have had negative feedback or bad experiences of teachers are country wide.

it really needs addressing, as it overshadows the excellent, pioneering work the NCT does

It doesn't seem comical to me that there is NCT bashing on this forum just rather sad that there is a national charity with laudable aims and achievements but a poor public image, some of whose volunteers feel undervalued.

Surely there needs to be some dialogue here. NCTCEO's post set the position out very clearly for the uninformed "basher" but did not address the valid concerns of people who give up their time to work for the NCT. Surely the NCT was aware of the, ahem, "frank" nature of discussion and debate on this site before the MN/NCT partnership was agreed. I confess I didn't know anything about it but then I am a sporadic reader of the round ups and tbh only got involved in this thread on Friday because I was updating the laptop in the kitchen while cooking various meals. I normally post at the PC in my study so do not have time to get heavily involved in these debates.

On reflection, I am inclined to get involved because I know the breastfeeding support they offer is excellent and that is where I think I would like to make a contribution. What I am interested in is empowering women to choose the way they feed their babies and not to feel dictated to by either side of the breast v. bottle argument (and I beleive that is broadly in keeping with NCT policy on infant feeding).

I don't think it's comical that they're being bashed, I don't think it's right at all.

I've had two antenatal courses with the NCT, both with the same baby! The reason being that our hospital runs NCT classes, the fame of which has spread so wide that they're looking at copying the format elsewhere. I enjoyed both classes, they gave balanced views of everything. At my actual NCT course the teacher had home births except with her last child because the (first time) father was a little nervous of the idea, but she had had to have inductions as she had gone over and she had decided to do it as she'd had enough. Both teachers spoke about sections, how to feel in control even when you have to have one, they spoke about T-BRAINS. In the NCT class I was the only one who was AP or planning on breastfeeding, but then I was the only second time parent so maybe I was just using experience they didn't have. Sadly I haven't had much to do with the others since then, even though I see on their FB pages they've all met up and been out.

My breastfeeding class was odd because no one was really interested! The teacher was fairly new and didn't seem confident in answering questions that were deliberately anti-breastfeeding (I don't want to but can you convince me in this answer, eg "I don't want to give up alcohol") I was answering often. She told me afterwards that she didn't tandem but nursed both her children longer than I have so far but didn't tell the group because of the attitudes

On the hospital side of it, I didn't attend the group because I knew who was running it and have spent a lot of time with her before and knew I probably would this time. I can't remember if she is a HV or MW but she is an NCT BFC too.

Yes it is really Belinda posting and am very happy to answer in full - just a little short on time the w/end so not been near PC much. Also today all day in a meeting about future strategy - and yes we do do do want the widest possible input to this. There will be a survey soon that you can use to say what you think. Those who are members get more say and more involvement on what we actually do because it is our members who fund the vast majority of the work the charity does. I will very likely get the chance to go back through the posts and respond tomorrow night - only one thing to say now is - there is much that can be done to make thigs work better and I welcome anyone who wants to do that thing - as a member - or a volunteer or both and there are paid posts too for those who are really keen - you can train too - and it is subsidised or completely paid for (as a result of the fundraising work we do - some of this money come from the profit from NCT shop - where we are often the first to have the latest really good idea) - we see it as a charitable service to put people out into the world who can, with a good skill set and knowledge, support other parents and make a difference in their lives. More when I have mo. Belinda

That's great Belinda- thanks for coming on line and looking forward to your fuller response when you have time. Hopefully we can save you money on market research/ consultancy by giving you a quick and dirty "view from the ground", even if we Mnetters are renowned for not mincing our words.

I am also intrigued by your link-up with MN - there has been little discussion of that and the reasons behind it from MN Towers. And also your views on a webchat- I think it could be quite lively, but also hopefully helpful to the charity and very interesting for MNetters.

I notice that someone is worried about revealing who they are because they have some criticisms to make of the charity. There is not need to be shy. No thunderbolt will strike you. On NCT e groups there is plenty of raising of these sort of issues. It?s easier for people (and me) to hear if it is put in a constructive way but there is a high level of tolerance.

The charity sets out to help parents have a life enhancing or positive experience of pregnancy birth and early parenthood. The aim is to help parents feel confident in their new role.

To do this we campaign to change the world in which people become parents and we provide services
? information ? based on evidence (so parents can make decisions that are right from them in the light of the facts such as they are)
? Courses and classes for those expecting a baby, on breastfeeding and for those caring for a new baby ? our classes set out to give parents the information they need to make decisions, to given them some tools to make the decisions and then ro provide or provide access to support to carry them out. We look to help people develop a supportive peer group, to improve their confidence and give them a better chance of having the sort of birth they want or being the kind of parent they hoped they would be
? Support for others in the same situation, a place to go and things to do with young children where you can be with others

? And as a side effect we provide a lot of second careers for mothers and lots of great experience to go on CVs to cover the gap while off caring for babies- we are also pretty good at getting new careers started. I think I am right in saying the netmums and mumsnet founders all had NCT involvement ? volunteering I believe!

That all sounds fine ? but like you I am aware that the NCT does get a bit of a bad press.

I think this stems from the fact that pretty much everything we do is done by volunteers and volunteers are fantastic ? but their skills and the time they have available vary ? so the NCT varies across the UK ? in some places it is strong open and vibrant ? in others it has a different character ? if you want to change it ? the best thing to do is get in there and get involved. The local teams/branches have a very high level of freedom to do whats right for their locality within the objects of the charity. Branches always have and still do raise the money needed to train thousands of antenatal teachers and breastfeeding counsellors and postnatal leaders and they support and pay for the running of our help lines ? the campaigning work ? we do also raise money in other ways but branches are crucial in funding what we do ? the fact that we are not dependant on grants helps because it gives us the freedom to be feisty and critical of the establishment or commerce when needed.

We have a long history of effective campaigning and have tended to pick up issues long before they become a mainstream view ? just to take a couple of examples ? when NCT first said parents should get birth preparation there was fury and shock ? from the obstetricians ? and also from the public. However now 50 years on antenatal education for women AND men is now accepted and although the health service has never really made these services available to men ? there is acceptance that that?s fine and really more than fine ? a good thing.
Same fury on dads in birth rooms ? babies sleeping with their mums instead of separate hospital nurseries ? and bringing it right up to date NCT looks to get the formula companies to comply with the WHO code and not advertise their wares ? and I am sure you will all have a lot to say about that ? but one day we will look back and go ? why ever did we allow it!

NCT is also working to get the health service to first allow and then encourage women to be off the bed and upright and able to move about when in labour. This was shocking when first mentioned in the 1980s ? but is gradually becoming a more mainstream idea ? slowly slowly though ? a shocking number of women still give birth in the embarrassing and ineffective hideous lithotomy position in stirrups on their back ? barbaric.

Before I start babbling I will go to bed ? but ask away and I will my best to respond

Belinda

I wanted a totally natural hippy water birth and ended up with a c section. It was fabulous as it was over so quickly and could have saved my babies life. Anyone who slags off c sections is ignorent. Childbirth should be about choice and I don'yt like the sound of organisations making women feel guilty.
Love the sales though and I helped out in a recent NCT sale. Fabulous bargains!
As a single mum I think I would feel like a freak at the post natal clasess. The image I have is of dinner party society. Am I wrong?

I'm another NCT volunteer and I have a question. I found out recently that our remit is only from pregnancy to 6 months. I was wondering why that is. It does make volunteers feel a bit rubbish, as almost by definition we have children older than that - it's not easy to volunteer during a difficult pregnancy or with a newborn! And most NCT groups hold toddler events, including the Cheeky Monkeys party. And the NCT core issues extend beyond 6 months - like breastfeeding, for example.

I understand that there is only so much money for campaigning and that most of it will go to childbirth (it being the National Childbirth Trust after all ), but it feels like a bit of a slap in the face to do all this work and for our stage of parenthood to not be officially acknowledged.

I would like the see details of the approx year in which the NCT achieved the changes they campaigned for as TBH everything sounds like it happened 40 years ago

I'm another NCT volunteer. We are restarting our branch - it folded a few years ago, we now have a totally new bunch of people. We have had almost no support from head office or our area/region people. I say almost because after lots of chasing and phone calls some things have been resolved (phone numbers for example). It would be nice to have a 'How's it going' type of contact from someone. And having 70% of everything we raise taken off us is a bit galling.

I do find the NCT a weird mix of charity and business. It's certainly not a charity I'd donate to - although I do support their campaigns. The lines all seem rather blurred.

I'm afraid my experiences of the NCT are entirely negative and it is such a shame when so much valuable work is done.

Trouble is, anything which relies on volunteers is always going to be middle-class isn't it, it's the same with school governors by and large.

The first coffee group I joined did not make me feel in the least welcome, they were a bunch of insufferably smug SAHMs and just stared at me like I was off another planet when I talked about my return-to-work dilemmas. Also I'd had a ventouse/epidural and actually found the whole thing quite pleasant and was also full of praise for enormous maternity unit I gave birth in....oooh not the done thing at all!

Second group I joined was a bit more mixed but other members either weird/boring or both.

One evening I phoned an nct bf counsellor in tears and she said the time was not ideal, it was friday night and she was going out in 5 mins. I gave up bf the next day.

Another comment I'd make is that NCT is simply judgmental and this alienates people, and NCTCEO you illustrate this perfectly when you criticise the lithotomy position, it may be barbaric to you but this sounds like the position I gave birth in, TBH it hasn't really ever occured to me and as I've said my birth experience was very positive. I know there are plenty of bad experiences out there and the NHS is overstretched but many mothers have had a rewarding birth experience despite the interventions that you campaign against.

I'm another NCT volunteer and I have a question. I found out recently that our remit is only from pregnancy to 6 months. I was wondering why that is.

This is not the case - you can see the NCT objects on the charity commission website. we generally cover from post conception - from when you have decided you will go ahead with the pregnancy to when you feel established in your new identity - or generally when your child is about 2. this a signal that something is wrong with the communication - i will have a look at what we do - did you get the latest Update magazine - it should cover that there - if not e mail [email protected] and they will post you one.

all the best - thanks for the question.

Belinda

That's quite odd, as our branch was roundly told off by HO for running groups that were not mainly focused on babies, but for toddlers as well. We were firmly instructed that this was outside our remit.

I agree with lackey; there's no one on our committee with a child under 2 - no, there's one. It's only after a year or so that you've got an ounce of energy to even think about volunteering.

"I wanted a totally natural hippy water birth and ended up with a c section. It was fabulous as it was over so quickly and could have saved my babies life. Anyone who slags off c sections is ignorent."

Thats why slagging off c sections is not NCT policy. They can and do save lives. However they also have some negative effects on mother and baby. If its a choice betwen these and death - most mothers would happlily live with the negative effects but very sadly the c section rate is now 25% and according the the World Health organsaition it should be 10-15%. This means that 10-15% of women are having a section when with better care they would have had a straghtforward birth.

A straight forward birth (low interevention) is the safest birth for healthy mothers with low risk pregnancies ( ie 60- 70% of mothers at least ). It is also the sort of birth that most mothers say they want. So nct works to help parents have that if that's what they want (if you are having a planned csection we can also help prep you for that and - classes or useful book here
www.nctshop.co.uk/Caesarean-Birth-your-questions-answered/productinfo/2163/ )
and works to get the health service to be better able to provide the care and support to make that possible for women.

If you are of a sensitive nature don't read on - but here is an evidence based list of risks of cs
Physical health- Increased maternal death
Hospital infection risks
Risks of uterine and wound damage due to bending and stretching
Risks associated with wounds
Increased risk of breathing problems in babies- increased chance of SCBU or NICU admission
Long term physical health concerns for mother
Increased risk of hysterectomy for mother and difficulty and risk in doing this
Slower postnatal recovery in mother
Slower resumption of sex life
Trauma and emotional damage to mother and father
Damage to baby ? knife cuts
Increased risk of sids ? baby
Reduced bf
Increased risk of further corrective surgery to mother
Increased risk of interuterine death to subsequent baby
Increased risk of placenta praevia/acreta in next baby
Increased risk of future uterine rupture
Increased risk of another cesarean section
Secondary infertility and reduced propensity to have another child

Belinda

I'm another NCT volunteer. We are restarting our branch - it folded a few years ago, we now have a totally new bunch of people. We have had almost no support from head office or our area/region people.

I am not surprised you are hacked off. If you would like to let me know where you are I will see what can be done - the reginal team are thmeselves volunteers - so we may have a gap the work e mail is [email protected]

I agree with lackey; there's no one on our committee with a child under 2 - no, there's one. It's only after a year or so that you've got an ounce of energy to even think about volunteering.

Some people do volunteer with a child under 2 but many or most of our volunteers have children older than this - and they do it often because they have benefited and would like to help others - they do it because they like the bunch of people they socialise/volunteer with etc. or becasuse they are learning useful things or because they have an absolute passion and love it. Its a goes aroud comnes around thing - you get support when you are new at the parenthood game and then you go on to support others and pass on your experience and wisdom etc.

Belinda

"I would like the see details of the approx year in which the NCT achieved the changes they campaigned for as TBH everything sounds like it happened 40 years ago"

I chose examples from long ago to show how what once seemed an outlandish NCT idea has become normal - more recent sucesses are - the English policy called Maternity Matters - you can read it here

www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_ 073312

NCT drafted it and worked with the other stakeholders - we build into it what was supported by the evidence and wanted by women - if you want something different say - and we will look at that - if you want to get up to your arm pits in this sort of thing - become a member and get our publications etc - I am on the implementation group for this policy so can feed your comments in right to the the DH - so do say what you think of it - in Scotland the policies there had much input from NCT and in Wales and now NI is developing policy we are involved there too.

The most recent outlandish NCT diea is do away with medical beds and have one of these

www.nctshop.co.uk/professional/NCT-Birthing-Couch-for-active-birth/productinfo/3270/

instead in birth rooms - and now 120 have them and soon we will do some measuring to see what the outcomes are in rooms that have them and what woken and midwives think - we are already getting a great reception from midwives.

This idea came form a survey of women who told us they needed 22 factors in their birth room to help them - so we have been working to get these 22 things sorted in birth rooms for the last few years.

Belinda

?Another comment I'd make is that NCT is simply judgmental and this alienates people, and NCTCEO you illustrate this perfectly when you criticise the lithotomy position?

I hope you will never hear anyone with an NCT label criticise any woman for the choices she made. Every woman makes the best choice she can with the available information she has and all women need support and respect for making the decisions they make. They may also need help to carry out the decision they made and should get it.

What NCT wants is for everyone who is on the road to parenthood or new at it to have evidence based information and decision making skills to help them decide what is right for them, their baby, their family. Our aim to get that information to parents before they have to make a decision. Then we want to see the parent given time- space and if nec some decision making tools so they can make up their minds ? then when they have decided ? help them carry out their plan ? or point them to where they can get help.

If you want of choose to give birth in the lithotomy position then it is not barbaric ? you are quite right I used short hand here and should not have ? however it is not presented as a choice to women ? nor is the evidence on its negative effect on your ability to labour and birth a baby usually made available.

For those that are having an intervention where lithotomy makes it easier to do the procedure and provided the woman is happy with this we would support it but we would also expect the hospital to behave sensitively ? ie not have people who you don?t know entering into the room without asking ? etc etc

We do know lithotomy and the procedures that go with it especially if the woman is not supported with a caring midwife preferably one she knows and trusts increases the risk of the woman ( and sometimes her partner) suffering mental trauma and contributes to the too high rates of PTSD. Where the woman is not given an option ? where she is treated insensitively and where it is used instead of good midwifery care then I would say it is barbaric.

Belinda

hope I have answered the immediate queries - off to bed