Come and have a pop at the NCT... how we love to loathe 'em

[volunteervole]

Why does everyone love to hate the NCT? Seriously, why?

Open up the Times today and you have Melanie Reid spouting about homebirths and casually chucking in a nasty reference to the NCT making women feel like crap. A quick search on MN reveals complaint after complaint along the lines of: "Oh the NCT, don't get me started", "Bloody NCT, what do they know?", "NCT bunch of smug bastards make me feel like rubbish", "Fleeced at an NCT sale" etc. etc.

I volunteer for the NCT (hence name changer here) and spend hours and hours each week running teas, putting pregnant people in touch with each other, hosting a website about local playgroups, trudging around in the evening delivering newsletters ... and so on. All for an organisation which seems to be popularly loathed. How is it that the NCT has such a spectacularly bad reputation? Am I wasting my time?

of course the NCT attracts loons... errr have you read some of the threads on this site? There are fanaticists and cliques everywhere 'tis human nature. As for agenda pushing, I think a lot of charities get branded with the worthy tag. Maybe it is because they are trying to do something worthwhile (I do agree that they can seem inept). It is predominantly run by women which might explain why some people are particulary prone to attack it. Casual misogyny is so endemic in our culture that most people take it for granted.

Am I missing something? Membership of the NCT, attendance at classes, reading the magazine are not compulsory. Why don't you start your own coffee groups if you hate the ones in your area? As for birth experiences I think the NHS may be a better focus for your anger than some poor sod in a fleece with hairy ankles running a coffee morning in her own time (just to perpetuate the lazy stereotype favoured in these discussions)

Our local branch is a bit crap but then they are volunteers with lots of young kids who do at least do something to try and help other mothers in the area.

I did do a search before I started this thread and, while there was chat thread a while ago (now deleted- Has the NCT outlived its usefulness), all I found was casual references to NCT loons and nothing which seemed to deconstruct why the NCT is such a problematic organisation and how far its reputation was deserved and whether it was worth volunteering for.

What I sometimes find weird is the way that people profess to hate the NCT even when they have met their mum friends through it. One thing which stimulated me to start this thread was meeting a mother earlier this week who told me that the NCT was a total waste of time for her. This was in a cafe where she was surrounded by friends from her NCT course more than a year ago, who she still meets up with every week and sometimes more often. They offer each other great moral support and also practical support like babysitting, sharing books etc. She simply couldn't connect that support system with the NCT, or understand that if the NCT didn't exist, she wouldn't have those relationships.

I really have to agree with giveusabreak that I detect an undercurrent of casual misogyny about a woman-led organisation. I also have a theory that the volunteering aspect of it is completely unfashionable and overlooked- people come to consume not to participate. Indeed, in my experience, people seem utterly mystified to be asked to help with things. It is possible to say no politely if you would rather not! Do you think giveusabreak that there is that aspect to it too?

NCT teachers are most definitely not supposed to talk about their own experiences in classes. Their own experience is simply not relevant because everybody's birth experience is their own. Plus the teachers are human and will have their own prejudices which are supposed to be kept under wraps like any professional.

I've met some amazing teachers - teaching really interesting courses, covering all areas of birth, including the intervention decisions parents will have to make. I've met some abysmal teachers who just lecture parents, teach to a formula instead of evaluating the parents' needs and requests and who refuse to mention c-sections or formula. It amazes me to think that they think this is helpful.

Ultimately, the good teachers are those who stress the decisions are to be made by the parents.

It's the giving of the information to make those decisions that is often the weakest link among the NCT teachers.

Without the NCT though, I do think we would mostly be on our backs, struggling to give birth uphill, not knowing why or what things were happening and generally be a damn sight less informed.

So, blanket attack the NCT if you want but I think whilst it has its weaknesses, it's also done an amazing amount of work promoting and supporting the choices of parents. I mean, I hear an awful lot of stories about doctors and midwives who simply dismiss parents' concerns and preferences.

Definitely, volunteering is not seen as an option for most people in this country, not because we are inherently lazy but because our culture focus on a passive consumerism. A good friend of mine ran a volunteer network at university and I remember thinking at the time that it was a weird thing to do. Now it makes a lot more sense to me. Don't rely on the government to sort everything out and certainly don't expect the private sector to care about anything other than balance sheets (especially these days). The advantage of voluntary organisations is that they are free of the constraints of politicians' whims and electoral interests.

Isn't there a different attitude to volunteering in the States? There's a homeless charity that attracts a lot of big names who do more than ponce about in designer clothes - Habitat?

I think the NCT could probably do with something of an image overhaul but am not sure how to achieve that. I think the logo change was part of a philosophical change. I am not an insider so maybe one is underway. As a nation we are so underinformed about so many issues including parenting it beggars belief.

our culture focuses

Yes I've tried to find that thread (Has the NCT outlived its usefulness?) which was about five years ago but sadly seems to have disappered - it was SUCH a good thrashing of the issues

I think the main problem with the NCT is that its campaigning and its social aspect are so bound up together. We get very upset when churches try to proselytise when they are supposedly doing social outreach and the NCT is similar. It sets up a heirachy of birth and sets mothers competing against each other for moral superiority from the get-go. It establishes the idea of "natural" birth vs. "un-natural" birth. (It was originally called the Natural Childbirth Trust.) Countless women have experienced NCT classes where "doctors" were seen as 'the enemy' and where the NHS is portrayed as being anti-choice. Times have changed but the NCT has not. It is still burning its bra while the rest of us are debating better work-life choices. The only CHOICE it really appears to advocate is the choice to avoid a medical birth - and lots of women don't want to make that choice, thanks.

The solution should be for the NCT to change it's name to the National Families Trust and have a dedicated WING for campaigning for better births, which is separate from its social outreach, which helps so many women. It also needs to scrap its ridiculous fees system which basically just nets middle-class mummies and it needs to manage its finances better. If its main aim became uniting mothers of all social backgrounds instead of campaigning then it would get far more state funding and would not confuse its mission with its message.

Classes were a complete waste of time and I found reading a few more books much more informative. We spent about 3 hrs on what is in colustrum but no practical suggestions on breastfeeding positions, what to do when your back and arms ache etc.

Epidurals actively discouraged and not much discussion about them which is absurb, 5 girls in my group had them in the end.

Very idealised picture painted, one girl ended up in tears after the teachers reaction to her question on serious tears (lets not focus on the worst case scenario dear)

However, a real lifeline after birth in terms of the other women in the group, we still meet up and really clicked (maybe we bonded over the awful teacher!)

A lot of it comes down to individual teachers - I had one friend whose teacher did a whole class on c-sections and set up a Playmobil people operating theatre and talked about who was who in the room - she sounded like a v. cool teacher!

Morningpaper - those are interesting points. I am just wondering how many people on here who criticise the (far from perfect) organisation are actually willing to put their money where their mouths are. If you had a negative experience at antenatal classes did you provide feedback to the teacher or to the head office? If you find the local branch to be impenetrable, do you contact the local chair or head office?

Hospital births with the high rate of interventions are so normalised that the NCT can seem a bit of a lone voice when it comes to advocating a different approach. Unless you are prepared to go for a homebirth then it is quite hard to have a "natural" birth. Hospitals are not, in the main, set up that way. I know there are exceptions. I had a crummy hospital birth and so went for a homebirth afterwards first time but it wasn't the NCT that pushed me into it, it was talking to friends (non NCT in fact) who had done it.

Then I read non-NCT publications. I think a lot of good work can be done via social networking. Maybe some volunteers need more training in listening skills and holding back on personal disclosure but if it weren't for friends' experiences I wouldn't have considered homebirth. It wasn't mentioned at my antenatal classes and I thought it was a bit crazy tbh. Actually it was one of the best things I ever did.

So I am not so sure that you can separate the social and the informing agenda.

I'd have to agree about the comments about organisation. I've tried and failed to get onto a class in both my pregnancies because despite many phonecalls and messages left, by the time the NCT called me back, the classes were full. Second time around I responded to an advert in the local mag advertising refresher classes, but after several weeks of phone calls, I was told these didn't exist.

Still, I went to the local Bumps and Babies where we were marshalled into discussing relevant topics such as "Getting Me Time" and "Adjusting to Life With New Baby." These sessions were facilitated by an enthusiastic and highly skilled leader, but all I wanted (and I suspected the others too) wanted to do was to meet other mothers and drink tea. We were frowned at if we went off topic.

On the other hand, even though I completely failed to get onto the class, I met the group through other means and we still meet weekly nearly 3 years on.

The local mag has been helpful to me by giving me very specific information about a medical condition I am suffering from during this pregnancy, and the policy of our local hospital which is contrary to NICE guidelines. This article gave me the courage and the evidence to challenge the hospital and the post-natal care I will be receiving. They also put me in touch, very quickly, with someone else in my situation.

"The only CHOICE it really appears to advocate is the choice to avoid a medical birth - and lots of women don't want to make that choice, thanks."

The NCT is keen on births where unnecessary intervention is kept to a minimum, this is true. There are a lot of unnecessary interventions as well as necessary ones.

Lots of women might prefer a more medical birth but they should definitely then know exactly what they are having done. Lots of people seem to regard C-sections casually and epidurals as without risk. Interventions all have risks as does 'natural' childbirth. People need to know about it.

I see the NCT as trying to give all the information out there to parents so they can make informed decisions that are not based on scare mongering or someone else's personal prejudice. That's why I joined and that's definitely the approach I will take.

I was SO pleased that I went to the antenatal courses - particularly as I couldn't get in to the local authority ones - seemed to be locked out . Unlike lots of people posting already, our teacher covered ALL of the aspects of birth - right from a very natural one, to assisted, to ECS - including a comprehension of how many wires and tubes you'd be likely to be linked up to by then. We had an entire evening on bf - split into two groups (m&f) which was really useful - and everyone was more positive about bf by the end of the evening - of the 6 couples there, only one ff, and that was because, despite follow up help from lots of bf counsellors she and her son just couldn't cope with bf.

I wanted a waterbirth and was determined to be as non-medicalised as possible. Ds had other ideas - 15 hrs in I was put on a drip as I wasn't dilating, despite contractions and waters breaking (and active) - midnight had epidural (OK... didn't get a working epidural until 3am...) - next morning, after hr of pushing ds still hadn't arrived - theatre for forceps trial (didn't try hard - no point) and ecs - he'd just got wedged and stuck. If I hadn't had the classes I wouldn't have understood what was happening and the implications as well - and I wouldn't have been able to make such informed choices (eg skipped pethadine). There was absolutely no feeling that I had 'failed' in any of my discussions with group or teacher. And bf was the one thing that did go to plan - and dh knew what to look for and was able to assist, helping to make sure that latch was good etc.

I also joined local coffee morning - but ours is not at all a 'formal' 'NCT' group - its only under their banner, and there is no one beating a drum about the NCT at the groups.

I don't know how NCT can get away from their poor reputation - but its not somthing that clouds my view of the NCT.

Thank you NCT, you made me a happier mother.

volunteer In answer to your question about the volunteering aspect i really don't think that is the case. I have done volunteer work before and my cousin does alot of volunteer work for oxfam and i don't think there organisation is looked down on in anyway. There are a few charitable organisations that are largely female that command some respect.

I have been thinking about this morning and i think some of the problems for me lie here

1. You are asked to pay large sums of money and volunteer.

2)It is hugely cliquey. It, to me gives some people more power than they deserve and unfortunately the people it attracts do tend to be very vocal about natural birth. In an ideal world we'd all have a natural birth but sometimes its just not possible we do not need to be made feel like its our fault.

3. For such a large organisation taking so much money they are hugely disorganised now i know they are often volunteer mums but when taking cash i think its important you provide a decent service, I am a WAHM and i have to be organised as its my business.

The common theme in all of the threads i've read about the NCT really comes back to the teachers and there disaproval of a medical birth. Maybe a simple satisfactory survey done privately on your own teacher might help clear this up as they would get feedback although i fear they wouldn't change their ways i'd be happy to be proved wrong as in theory its amazing and the friendship aspect is definitely the best.

Slackrunner - I think these terrible attitudes are a natural result of the belief that Mother Nature is infallible and that if anything goes wrong, it must be someone or something else to blame. But it is all about the people, like many I avoided them because of the view that they are narrow minded dictators but my friend still meets her NCT friends and they are nothing like the stereotype. But then they are not the organisers so possibly it is the odder ones who want to do that.

I really ought to take my kids to the park instead of doing this

Wolfnipplechips (I also like your name!) On the financial side of things, you don't have to be a member to go to coffee groups, nearly new sales or to ring the bf helpline. These things are provided to everyone. I think the NCT catalogue is full of overpriced rubbish which no one really needs but then the same could be said of a lot of stuff in Mothercare and Mothercare don't run a national breastfeeding line. The fees you pay help pay for the breastfeeding support they offer and that is why I will defend them, whatever their other faults. Without the bf line I could not have kept going with bf and that would have been a great loss to me. I didn't really pay attention in the NCT bf class (I was probably too knackered and focused on the birth tbh) but I rang the helplines again and again. And they listened to me cry, made suggestions and didn't hand out pat answers. Whatever else they do and don't do well, they do that and they do it for anyone who wants to ring up. It costs money to set up freecall phonelines and to train people to run them. They have to fund them somehow.

As Morningpaper says, a lot of it seems to depend on the individual teachers. But there is so much more to the NCT than just those classes, and they seem to be colouring people's view of the whole organisation. But there are some shocking stories on this thread.

I have a lot of time for what you say wolfnipplechips. But I think people understand the concept of Oxfam quite well. They know what it does and so on, and it is clearly helping people in need. I don't think that people in general understand the concept of an organisation which basically helps middle class women, who have the same high expectations as they woud have from private companies.

Are there any NCT professionals on this site? Perhaps they should be alerted to this discussion. I would email the thread link but I don't know whether they would follow it up. Perhaps Mumsnet Towers would consider inviting the charity in for a webchat

That's a good idea giveusabreak- I was thinking of emailing the link to their new PR guy

Since MNTowers have shacked up with a deal with the NCT then I think they should make more of it. Maybe some of the MN lustre would rub off on the NCT!!

OK will look out for something from MNHQ.

Giveusabreak your right they do provide an absolutely vital service in the form of the breastfeeding helpline. I never actually used them as we have excellent peer supporters where i live and i had an amazing midwife who dedicated alot of time to making sure i was able to bf.
I have used la leche for a friend of mine who was having alot of problems and i was so relieved as they weren't in the least judgey the lady who came to see her was. My experience of NCT ante natal meant that i wouldn't of used there bf advice service as the people i encountered had amazing births and were still bf toddlers and never had any problems so to me they were the last people i would have wanted to approach with problems. I have never really met anybody who used their councelling services and there aren't any NCT baby or toddler groups in my area probaly because we have a really good childrens centre with bf peer supporters and baby groups. My experience of the NCT has all been from a sales point of view. Maybe the NCT need to go into mass PR drive as i don't think i'd be alone in my opinion of them.

ps thanks for the nice things said about my name.

If you are on benefits I think membership is £2 a year.

Wolfy (can I call you that, saves typing ) it is fantastic that you have good NHS bf resources in your area. A quick scan of this forum reveals that lots of mothers are not so lucky. Lots of us have been on the receiving end of duff advice from the NHS on bf. I do think you are a bit wide of the mark on La Leche too. It is a great organisation doing excellent work but they are more hardline pro-bf than the NCT. The name means "milk" - they are pro-bf and I would challenge you to find a meeting where they will openly talk about the choice to use formula.

It does seem that you have made your mind up about an organisation on the basis of one, admittedly expensive, encounter antenatally. Look, I am not an NCT-phile but it is the major parenting charity and parents who feel it isn't meeting their needs need to engage with the charity rather than sniping on internet forums - that's not directed at you personally, or even this thread in particular BTW - there have been loads of anti-NCT sentiments expressed elsewhere on MN.

At the risk of sounding like a cheesey self-help guru(who the hell said it) you have to be the change you want to see in the world.

I totally agree but i do think they have a big resposibility in how they are portrayed after all they're taking first timers cash and judging by the responses on mn they have a large amount of unsatisfied customers.

Don't you think anonymous feedback forms would be a good idea. Because its so cliquey many mums i would imagine would be intimidated to complain. Before i had my dd i was so confident and having a baby completely dented my confidence, i went from being bubbly to being a big mess it took me a long time to get my confidence back, would i mention it if i was in that situation now, hell yeah but back then i once cried because somebody called be a young mum at a bf group (i was 25), i'd love someone to say that to me now. Birth is a sensitive subject that everyone has an opinion on but if your involved in delivering care then you are there to support not criticise, i'm sure its just a few people that give a whole organisation a bad rep.

I will whole heartedly admit that i am biased as i haven't had the best experience with them and my mum friend who has always been a tad opinionated has now crossed over to the dark side since she started training with them, but this isn't the NCT its just that she's now in a group who agree with her so it has become her norm.