DD 11yo lack of empathy and argumentative - is this normal or should I worry?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

I really want to be told I'm worried about nothing.

DD1 is in so many ways a great kid, smart, sporty, a good friend. I am proud of her.

She also has this side to her which is beoming more pronounced, and I just don't know if I should worry.

She is super focused on her own wants and feelings, no matter what else is going on. I thought it would get better as she got older but it doesn't seem to be.

An example would be last night. DD2 unexpectedly had a head injury and hsd to be rushed to hospital. I took her and left DD1 and DS with my husband. Before I left, I told them, we think DD2 will be just fine, but this is an emergency. Can yoi please be really good for Daddy and help him out tonight?

DS went all solemn and said yes. By all accounts, he was very good all evening.

DD1 apparently spent all evening bickering with DS and DH, and had a tearful rant at DH because he'd disarranged some of her stuffed toys by mistake, and also because she wanted a new duvet cover. DH was keeping the show on the road at home whilst responding to my updates about the results of the CT scan, what the consultant said etc.

This is just one e.g. but there are lots and lots. Part of me thinks, poor kid, she's only 11, she's still developing empathy, she'll be fine, just make her feel safe and loved and she'll get there in time.

But another part of me feels increasingly uneasy. We haven't raised her to be spoilt. We talk a lot about loving and supporting and helping each other, and even in a situation where a member of the family is in hospital, she can't seem to stop thinking about trivial material stuff and what she wants.

I know that is one example but stuff like that happens almost daily, where it's like she cannot let go of the focus on "what do I wamt, how does this affect ME" no matter what else is going on.

Would this worry you in an 11yo or does it sound developmentally normal?

Sounds like puberty and completely normal. You should talk to her about the way she behaved though as it wasn't acceptable.

DH needs to set boundries.

Sounds normal to me. It will get better. She wasnt at the hospital with you so its a sort of 'out of sight, out of mind' scenario, plus you told her dd2 would be fine so effectively nothing to worry about. They get better as they get older but if she is your eldest, get ready for it to get worse before it gets better.

Very few 11 year olds, and even some adults, manage to have appropriate emotional empathy. Adults are usually better at hiding it. She may need some help in understanding appropriate emotional responses, that may also have been her response to stress.

I haven't found teens any good at limiting their own emotional responses to save your own, I would say that only happens genuinely from late teens to early twenties and I have several friends whose adult children don't seem able to perceive adults have feelings too at all, especially their mums. It also varies by situtation, sometimes my kids have been very careless with my feelings, other times much more responsive. It's patchy, it's a learning curve and it's not in place at 11.

I think it's also fine for your husband to respond to this by pointing out she's not being helpful and ask her to stop. She might not, but it's ok to let her know that's inconsiderate and she's not the priority at that time point. That's how you learn, get it wrong, get feedback, correct in future (although as someone has just said, teenagers tend to be far worse at this than 11 year olds so brace yourself).

Thanks so much all, esp @Fernsarethebestplants

This is what I needed to hear. I need to trust that if I keep gently, lovingly, firmly pointing out when her behaviour is not okay - then she'll get there.

I find it hard to judge as my own childhood was hugely repressive and there is no way I would have dared speak to my parents like that as the fall-out would be nuclear.

I always toggle between trying to parent more normally and healthily versus worrying I am too soft or missing stuff.

When my kids were this age they would often behave like this, rather than a lack of empathy we think it was due to feeling unsettled and lashing out as they found it difficult to process their emotions and the situation. The organisation of toys is also familiar as they like to be able to be in control of what they can when other things are out of their control.
However our children all have ASD, not saying your dd is but something we have found explained a lot of behaviour, not excused it but helped us understand.

Is DD the eldest OP?

My eldest is similar. I think it’s an elder child thing. He does seem to have a bit more empathy than what you’re describing, amazingly, but I suspect that’s learnt rather than natural. He is neurodiverse, though, but I think my youngest DC is too and he isn’t like this - he does think of others’ feelings.

I would absolutely have pointed it out though - maybe this isn’t the best example as PP has said, out of sight out of mind and you had told her DD2 was fine so she took it at face value. But it’s ok to say when behaviour is not ok!

My eldest is also ND and she struggled with understanding and expressing emotions til very late, but she's now a very sensitive and empathic person, I would say it's taken til 16 or 17 for the penny to start to drop, partly I think because other people's emotions or her own were overwhelming, and she used to shut down or behave inappropriately (like giving someone money if they were upset). Emotional development is a skill you can learn.

OP, 11 year olds are not always able to put their own wants and needs aside and if she was worried on some level about her sister, that could make her less easy to manage. I think it is perfectly ok for DH to make it clear that his focus is not her duvet cover. She just might need things to be spelt out. She might need you guys to model the behaviour you want to see and notice when she is thinking of the feelings of others and be impressed.

11 is a weird age- they have one foot in childhood and another elsewhere and can be quite grown up one minute and like a very vocal toddler the next. I wouldn't be worried at all about this but I can see why you would want to get her to think about others.

Sounds completely normal to me. She’ll have been aware there was an emergency, have had her own feelings about that which came out in fussing about something that felt more in her control. Given it’s not unusual for adults to do this, we can’t expect children to get it without lots of support and guidance.

Yeah @Bigtrapeze I think that is very wise.

Interesting a few folk have mentioned ND. My family has a lot of that and years ago, we did actually have her assessed. It came back negative, but I have always wondered.

It is almost like.... she gets this kind of myopic righteous anger about stuff, if that makes sense? Like, we did tell her a couple if weeks back we'd get her some new bedding some time before Christmas, so she's not wrong about that. But it's just like... really, now?

I think she might be ND if you have thought it in the past to the point of being assessed. My DS didn’t meet the threshold for ASD but I suspect it’s in the mix with the rest of his ND, the others are just more prominent!

It doesn’t need to change how you treat her when this happens though, just have in the back of your mind that bit of understanding and reassurance that it might be she’s just wired a bit differently.

This sounds very much like AuDHD. It is common for ASD and ADHD to be missed in girls with both as one masks the other beyond the usual masking girls often do until they hit secondary school and then the wheels fall off.

It is not a lack of empathy, but a case of the fear & worry for DD2 has triggered a coping mechanism of distraction. Hyper focussing on the mundane as a way to avoid thinking about the hospital and whether DD2 is ok. The fact she got emotional about stuffed toys and bedding is classic autistic dysregulation of emotions when overwhelmed by a stressful situation.

@LoremIpsumCici I suspect you may be right, but - and I feel horrible about this but - I just find that behaviour so unlikeable.

I mean I can get it in my head, I can rationalise it.

But by contrast, DD2 is 3.5y younger. She was absolutely stoical at the hospital. Various people doing obs on her - not a murmur. They wouldn't let me in the room for the CT scan with her and they had to strap her head to the bed for it. She was completely calm and didn't utter a word of complaint. Afterwards, she threw up violently all over the table, so she was obviously feeling awful during the scan but she didn't show it, not one bit. Today on her own initiative, she wrote a thank you card to the nice nurse who took her down for the scan and walked down to the postbox by herself to post it.

I know it's wrong and they are different people, but just seeing that level of total lack of self pity from an 8yo, and then a nearly 12yo screaming about soft toys and why won't you buy me this n that.... it's just hard to have respect for that.

Your older daughter is behaving in a way that is completely normal from a developmental perspective. You need to get a grip of yourself here because you do not want her to get the idea that you dislike her. And by comparing the two children you’re setting them up for a lifetime of competition as sisters, rather than companionship and support.

I don't need to "get a grip of myself" thanks Jemima. I'm a rational adult reflecting honestly on an anonymous forum. Making one comparison, not to her, is not setting them up for a life of competition, how foolishly dramatic.

It's completely okay to privately dislike your kids' behaviour on occasion.

My dc is a little older and can be like this. I have been worrying so much about their apparent lack of empathy and pure entitlement at times.

Recently dc1 decided to give their younger sibling something as they no longer wanted it. Then a few weeks later, dc1 suddenly decided they wanted it back. Dc2 obviously put out by this. I explained that you can’t gift something and then decide some time later that you want it back, that’s not how giving works, even if it is your sibling and even if you did spend your own money (technically my money if we’re being pedantic) on it. Cue a huge meltdown and despite me very clearly explaining the situation in a way that I knew they would understand, they could focus on nothing but the fact they wanted the thing back and how ‘unfair’ it was, getting very upset and angry in the process. No thought whatsoever to how unfair it is to give someone something and then demand it back weeks later. I didn’t give in, dc stormed off to their room crying but I wasn’t about to let something so ridiculous happen to appease them. It can be so frustrating to deal with though, as dc1 will be 100% convinced they are right and it’s all a huge injustice to them even though it’s categorically not and it inevitably blows up and we’re all left feeling crap afterwards.

That’s just a recent example but there are plenty of other incidents where I’ve been left astonished at the lack of empathy. I’m glad to read that this is somewhat normal, because I was/am genuinely concerned I was raising a psychopath or something. I think all we can do is hold firm on things and hope that the penny drops eventually.

I also find my dc1s behaviour so unlikeable at times, it’s really hard as obviously we love our children which I think compounds that feeling. This age group is a challenging stage in my opinion. It’s almost like having toddlers in the house again sometimes.

As far as Nature is concerned, young people are the future of the planet so it's teaching them to survive. "Me" first, last and at all stages in between. Hard to deal with, but just be patient

@DrNeededInInflatorRoom thank you so much, what a kind post and that resonates so much.

I was actually considering hiding this thread as I'm feeling unusually non-resilient after a night in hospital and worrying about DD2 and DD1! But your post really strikes a chord.

DD1 has literally in the past done exactly that, passed something on to a younger sibling and then tried to snatch it back in a fit of pique. I also once found her trying to take pocket money off one of her siblings, on the grounds that she thought a pound coin they had "looked like" a coin she'd had. The younger sibling was tearfully trying to argue that it was their money whilst DD1 ranted about giving it to her right now. That one really gave me chills.

But mostly she is great. She has a little circle of friends and her friends' parents have more than once spontaneously told us how they're pleased their daughters are friends with her as she is a great support.

I just really struggle with the behaviour at times and whether it's a phase or some character trait.

If she's already been tested for ND, there must have been enough there to make it worth testing, so she may have some ND traits. I've found with my dd like this that she has matured emotionally and socially, but it took longer, so late teens before it all fell into place. If she has a strong sense of justice, but socially not great skills, she might find friendships a bit hard for a while, she's most likely going into hormonal changes even if she is not yet in puberty.

Your younger one is at an age where she is still motivated to please and probably 'cute' in an obvious way. Teens are very different than 8 year old, my second was very defiant as a teen despite being a sweet child before that.

I suppose I'm saying you have to let them go throught that, provide guidance, but don't worry they are fixed aged 11 and 8 as that's just not true. I found some of the tactics in 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' good.

No child's behaviour is perfect all the time - they can all be selfish or thoughtless at times and it's our job as parents to point this out and signal disapproval of unacceptable behaviour. You don't have to secretly dislike their behaviour - it's ok to tell them that they're being selfish and you're disappointed. As long as you're also praising their behaviour when appropriate, it won't cause them harm to be told that behaviour is not ok.

The situation you described where her younger sister was in hospital with a head injury - she was probably feeling anxious and worried and this came out in bad behaviour over silly things. I really wouldn't read too much into it.

In my experience teens can be a lot more selfish than younger children. My dcs probably were most empathic (is that a word?) age 7-10 or so then it got significantly worse through early teens and now they are adults they (generally) act appropriately.

children do have their own personalities as well and some are noticeably more focused on other people.

@Octavia64 that is interesting. I'll think on that.

@Fernsarethebestplants it's just such a mix with her. In some ways, she has great social skills - she's always had friends who love her and she's one of those people who is the "glue" in their group and brings other girls together, if you can picture what I mean? But then, she sometimes does things like taking money from siblings as I mentioned or just being breathtakingly unaware of someone else being tired or in pain. So sometimes I think ND, other times I secretly worry she has not so nice traits :(

Her younger sister is actually the opposite of a people pleaser, she is actually a genuine proper tough nut! I think that's why I was shook by last night, as Dd2 is rarely upset or vulnerable.