DD 11yo lack of empathy and argumentative - is this normal or should I worry?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

I really want to be told I'm worried about nothing.

DD1 is in so many ways a great kid, smart, sporty, a good friend. I am proud of her.

She also has this side to her which is beoming more pronounced, and I just don't know if I should worry.

She is super focused on her own wants and feelings, no matter what else is going on. I thought it would get better as she got older but it doesn't seem to be.

An example would be last night. DD2 unexpectedly had a head injury and hsd to be rushed to hospital. I took her and left DD1 and DS with my husband. Before I left, I told them, we think DD2 will be just fine, but this is an emergency. Can yoi please be really good for Daddy and help him out tonight?

DS went all solemn and said yes. By all accounts, he was very good all evening.

DD1 apparently spent all evening bickering with DS and DH, and had a tearful rant at DH because he'd disarranged some of her stuffed toys by mistake, and also because she wanted a new duvet cover. DH was keeping the show on the road at home whilst responding to my updates about the results of the CT scan, what the consultant said etc.

This is just one e.g. but there are lots and lots. Part of me thinks, poor kid, she's only 11, she's still developing empathy, she'll be fine, just make her feel safe and loved and she'll get there in time.

But another part of me feels increasingly uneasy. We haven't raised her to be spoilt. We talk a lot about loving and supporting and helping each other, and even in a situation where a member of the family is in hospital, she can't seem to stop thinking about trivial material stuff and what she wants.

I know that is one example but stuff like that happens almost daily, where it's like she cannot let go of the focus on "what do I wamt, how does this affect ME" no matter what else is going on.

Would this worry you in an 11yo or does it sound developmentally normal?

Both of mine have astounded me over the years being very selfish when I hoped for different, and kind and compassionate when I wasn't expecting it.

Nothing is set in stone, and both of them will change through the teen years. Being a social glue is a great quality, they will end up a mix with their own slant on it. I would say they change hugely though in the teen years and even beyond.

I think this anxiety is coming from somewhere and is not all about your dd, she was awful last night at a time of stress, but it seems to have disturbed you. I think it was very scary and it's easy to 'blame' dd1 but she is 11 and not very mature. These things happen.

I think the worst thing about teenager wrangling is that it is unclear whether their behaviour is 'normal' or evidence of neurodiversity/mental health difficulties/small psychopath in the making. I think my DD is very normal based on her behaviour outside the house and she is 95% wonderful but with close family she can sometimes be quite unpleasant to live with. I think family get the absolute worst of it and younger siblings especially. Plus not all of them are like that. I have friends who are either lying or have more cooperative children. Or their turn will come. (I hope not).

All I have learnt is that you have to be clear about what isn't okay but there is no point trying to talk to them at the point they are unreasonable. They can't take it in and it just feels like an attack. A calm and hypothetical conversation a day later can be much more effective. Pick your battles, bide your time and keep as calm as you can. You're not alone, JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff.

Solidarity from me. It's a tough season alright, but they are good fun too in my experience. Try to keep those memories at the front of your mind and repress the 25 minute meltdown about running out of ketchup (which I can now laugh about 3 years later).

Thanks Bigtrapeze and Ferns

I also need to remember it's the first half term of secondary.

And if I just keep consistent with keeping fair boundaries and calling out poor behaviour - although maybe after the fact - at some point, it will sink in.

And consider if we want to re approach the question of ND, although maybe not right at the start of secondary.

Sounds more like your DD2 was woozy and too unwell to do anything but go along rather than actively choosing to be stoic.

I think it is important not to make a judgement of liking or disliking behaviours that are outside their control. In addition, you mentioned a childhood that was emotionally repressive so you have a baked in bias towards thinking the stoic, unemotional response is the likeable or right response.

Yes, you are no doubt less repressive than your parents, but a childhood where displays of emotion were actively discouraged and shamed or beaten out of you will have messed up your frame of reference both in terms of what level of emotion is normal in situations and in terms of your gut reaction to emotional displays of discomfort and withdrawal.

Have a think on why you are characterising the emotional deflecting reaction to stress and worry as ‘poor behaviour.’ You do not want to be an emotionally unavailable parent for a child that is wired for big emotions.

I was going to say the same thing, this sense of the clock striking 13 and a social response being a tiny bit off was an early ASD sign for my daughter looking back. My brother too had absolutely no ability to "put others first" on the daily, this was the 80s when high functioning autism wasn't a thing you looked for. He had a massive sense of social justice and loads of empathy in terms of strong feelings and emotions, like crying if an animal in a cartoon died. At the same time he would die on a hill at teatime that HE should be the one to have the extra Mr Kipling Fondant Fancy!!! rather than giving it to a sibling which WOULD NOT BE FAIR!!

My daughter is the same. "Don't worry, my sister needs this more than I do right now" would not be a sentence she is able to say.

I can imagine both him and my daughter doing the same things your daughter did if they felt a bit uneasy and a parent was out at hospital.

Also wondering if you have some work to do about the emotions you were allowed to have in childhood. It's completely normal to feel absolutely raw anger towards your own child who is allowed to have the response you weren't. It is a howling inner fury that rises up in a very distinctive way when you get to recognise it. But it's about you and little you, not about your kid. My therapist said there were 3 people there, when you're parenting, who need to be looked after in the right way - you now, the memory of little you; and your real actual child.

also don't forget your younger daughter when looking at ND...one reason someone might be stoical in hospital is different sensory processing of pain!!!

My family had all the audhd stuff for generations but it was the diagnosis of my daughter and my nephew in recent years that unlocked it for literally ALL the rest of us. Unlocked a 70 year+ set of experiences and allowed us all to make sense of life in a highly unexpected way. If you're highly functioning you all will have sophisticated workarounds so you won't even know what's going on. But this younger generation, phew, they can't hold it in in today's world - you might find there's a big long journey of discovery opening up ahead of you...

D1 may be only 11 but at that age she should know the difference between right and wrong.

She chose the wrong time to behave like a toddler, and should have been spoken to with firm words and told to snap out of her bad attitude.

You mentioned empathy in your post OP, and from what you have said it seems like your son has it but D1 needed dicipline. She should still be dealt with and told there will be consequences if she behaves like that again.

Perhaps she was very worried about her sister but had no words to express it so was acting out?

Amber, I think this is the crux of why I posted - I don't know if it IS a reaction like you are describing.

It may be. Or, maybe she just doesn't care. Which is my worry.

I also think, parents are allowed to be human. I want to be the best parent I can, which is why I am posting here and thinking.

But I'm a human not a service animal - I know you weren't suggesting I was :) and I think after being awake for over 20h and worried about a young child, it is okay for my responses not to be "perfect".

I also grew up with a seriously ill sibling. As an adult, I can now look back at my parents' behaviour and see why they acted like they did. It hasn't scarred me for life, and I am quite wary of any narrative that suggests you need to be perfectly attuned to or present for your kids at all times. I don't think human relations work like that, honestly.

Argh I am just boosting this.

DD had a few nights away with PILs whom she really loves. I hoped it would provide a bit of a re-set, too. She came back last night. Whilst she was away we had bought her some pumpkins to decorate and everyone was really pleased to see her.

She spent all evening arguing about going to bed but I could see she was tired so I gently persisted and she was happy to snuggle down, I could see..
But this morning has just been awful. I came back from an early morning run to find her shouting, claiming DH was trying to hurt her - turned out he'd just stopped her watching the iPad! She then started doing that horrible high pitched scream, you know the one that toddlers do? Because her brother had touched her. I tried to give her a hug and joke a bit with her - it worked initially but then she suddenly got upset and stormed off.

In the end, we were all supposed to be doing swimming this morning, but I said to DH why didn't he stay home with her and take a breather.

It's just so stressful right now. I've got tonnes on at work, I've got a sports injury that's really flaring, DH is undergoing investigations for mysterious pains he keeps having, and I am trying to do right by her but at the same time, no one is objectively treating her badly and she's just so mean to everyone.

Have you sat her down and spoken to her? Asked her why she thinks she’s causing so many arguments? Is she worried or stressed about something or unhappy?

It sounds like she’s regressing a bit, maybe the combo of secondary school + you and dad being stressed about health + injured sibling.

Thanks @Sunbringer I try to frame it more neutrally than that, but yes I have asked. She leaps to being incredibly defensive and won't engage ("you just think the worst of me" etc). It's really draining.

DD2 is pretty much better now and the kids don't know about DH health situ, but he is in a lot of pain which I know makes it harder for him to be patient. He is normally a proper soft touch, uber uber patient so I wonder if him being a bit snappy is a shock to her.

But honestly, we only get "snappy" when she's been asked to do something reasonable repeatedly or is kicking off about something trivial!

Sweetheart I think she may be heading for an autistic burnout, please have a think about it - do a bit of reading with an open mind because if it is that, the sooner you're able to process what is happening, the sooner she can start getting the right support. And pushing on can make a burnout last years.

OP, if there's ND (AuDHD??), the 'kicking off about something trivial' may not be about something trivial at all to her. Maybe sensory needs make being touched really hard? I do wonder whether there's something going on that isn't immediately obvious, especially as you have a nearly adolsecent saying

As another glass child, I know it's easy to expect ppl to stop having needs if someone else is sick/ill/ in pain.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it is hormonal. At that age a lot will be changing for her physically, and then she's got a new school to cope with, and stress with illness at home too.

When she's being calm, tell her you love her, give her a hug, praise her for homework/being nice to her siblings/helping with chores/whatever. It may be that she's wound up all the time so every little thing sends her over the edge into unreasonable behaviour (I recognise this in myself when stressed), so anything to try to lower the stress as much as possible might be useful. Having 1:1 quality time with her dad this morning is a good choice. Even small things like saying you're pleased to see her when she gets home from school will help regulate the emotional turmoil.

It might be worth talking to her about periods and how hormonal shifts can mess with your emotions too. Tell her about your own experiences.

Good luck OP. My eldest daughter is 12 (year 8) and we've had a lot of evening tearfulness and anxiety in the last few months, out of nowhere. Cuddles have been helping.

Thank you both.

I will do some reading on burnout today.

What I struggle with though is, she really seems able to turn it on and off, and surely that is not like ASD?

for example this afternoon we are sorting out Halloween costumes, and she is very chirpy and completely normal while she is describing what she wants me to buy her. She looks happy and is speaking calmly. Then she moved over to where her younger siblings were watching the iPad and immediately: "it's not FAIR, i don't want to watch <whatever crap it was>, why do THEY get that". I said nicely but firmly, "you can have a turn in a bit." She seemed like she was going to argue so I said "please don't start arguing with me. It's not good behaviour to try and stop them having a turn."

She seemed to pause and then went, "okay FINE" and sat down with them, now giggling along at some cartoon.

Does this really feel like AuDHD??? The people in my family who have old-style Asperger's diagnoses cannot do that, they are like on one set of railway tracks.

Thanks @hairstreak yes that is one reason we sent her to PIL as she is close to MIL and then this morning, I took younger ones out so she cld have 1:1 time with DH, who she is generally closer to. I will try to spend some time with her but the other thing is, I've got 2 other kids! DD2 in particular pretty much never gets adult time alone and will quietly take herself off to read alone - she's only 8 - and I do feel like her big sister's drama is dominating a lot.

No one should diagnose over the internet OP, and as others have said it could be traits or normal pre-teen behaviour. However, sometimes ND shows up as masking, or being fine when engaged and then suddenly not being ok.

As someone with a lot of ND in my family, a lot of ND behaviours seem completely normal to me. They can be hard to think about because of course everyone does that...

I'm sure you will get lots more support here if you want to consider it, and I wish you all well.

You're doing a good job OP, keep going!! It's blinking tough raising pre-teens.

Weirdly I actually recognise myself a lot in your DD8 - not making a fuss, going off to read in my room a lot, getting a lot less attention from all the adults. And yes my elder sister was diagnosed AuDHD in her 30s! Could be a coincidence Ofc but I found it easier to weather the drama rather than add my own.

I have just been reading about autistic burn out, just a skim, and honestly only a small fraction of it fits.

What I've read turns on burn out showing up as deep fatigue, shutting down, inability all of a sudden to manage small demands or routines, need to stim or wear comfy clothing.

None of that is what DD is doing.

She has loads of energy - she has just been on holiday with PILs who live in a coastal area and has had 4 days of autumn beach trips with friends, baking, running round. Right now she is doing an imaginative game with DD2 perfectly happily. She has no social difficulties at all outside home

The flashpoints consistently come when she is asked to do something for someone else or because someone else needs her to. So today she has refused to help DH tidy up the living room as we have guests coming soon. Me and DS were going out in the storm to do an errand and I said could DH and the girls spend half an hour tidying round? DH and DD2 both helped but DD1 refused.

Then we were putting together Halloween costumes and DD1 is getting bought one, but DD2 just wants to be a black cat so I said if we could find a black top and leggings I'd make her a cat's face with eyeliner. DD2 doesn"t have any black leggings but DD1 has an old pair that she has refused to wear for ages as they are too small. I asked (not told) DD1 if her sister could have them, pointed out she was getting a new costume and DD2 wasn't.

DD1 agreed, reluctantly, but apparently when I left for our errand she recanted and spent much of the time whipping up a shouty argument with DH, culminating in her physically lying on top of the damn leggings. DD2 eventually said it was fine, she wouldn't use them.

I don't know, I just don't know, does that sound like AuDHD????

I kind of "want " her to be autistic because it would make sense of her behaviour. But I am just afraid she is showing mean traits. I keep thinking of all the crazy controlling MILs and partners you hear about on here, and think, well those people don't just come from nowhere....

It sounds like PDA to me, she's not mean or bad, but she doesn't respond well to requests at all, My eldest was similar, she is ND but has chosen not to go forward with an autism diagnosis for now. The screaming, the inability to read emotions in others, the lack of social norms around emotions, the difficulties with demands (heard as criticisms)- I don't know if your dd has a diagnosable nd but surely if they are in the family, this might be a possibility and even if you don't go forward with diagnosis, I think knowing about how women with adhd/asd present and looking at ways to manage her behaviour through this lens would help you enormously.

Her screaming is dysregulation, not badness. I'm pretty sure.

My dd also is charming, socially quite skilled, but burns out socially and at home very easily, and this is difficult to take as they are lovely with others but horrid at home, that's a form of decompression we all do a bit which is exaggerated where there is ND and they literally stop masking, stop being upbeat and get overwhelmed very easily in the moment.

It won't hurt you to read a little, especially about women with autism and girls with autism, and use the techniques, whether she has it or not. One that helps me a lot is the idea of 'loving detachment' which is where you are one step back yourself from the fray. I have had to work very hard to learn to regulate my own emotions and not get worked up when they get worked up, but over time, and I mean years, I have learned to say 'hmm' or 'oh dear' and sort it out calmly when they are freaking out, I used to lose my own temper or feel my own stress go up when they were spiralling, which is what I suspect you are doing as you are frazzled and stressed and taking her behaviour personally which it is not.