Is it normal for nursery and reception to limit hours?

[HelloUpThere]

My DD is due to start nursery in September and my DS reception at the same primary school. They’re both in a private nursery now and do 3 long days a week (9-6). During settling in sessions, the nursery said my DD can only come for the mornings if she’s not potty trained. This was in July. She’s not quite there yet. She will use a potty but for some reason is scared to use a toilet. She also struggles to pull her trousers/pants down so does still need a lot of help. She is generally very emotional at new things so I think the transition to school will be hard enough without trying to push her(plus it’s getting quite late). Is that normal for schools to say?
On the last day of term I was also told my DS will only do one hour a day to start with. He is autistic but this was never mentioned during his settling in sessions. I couldn’t talk to anyone about it as it was the office who told me so I’m hoping that is just the first week. But if not, is that ok for them to do?! I’m stressing about work and wondering whether I should just keep them in private nursery for another year if they have the space still. I was told that children can stay until they’re 6. Long term this doesn’t help with my older child but it just all seems very messy.

Short days for the first week or two is pretty common.

That said, my understanding is schools are technically supposed to provide a full time education.

If it’s just an hour a day can he keep going to nursery for the rest of the day? Ours offered that for the transition period.

Some schools do try and do stupid things like half days to settle them in, but a majority of kids will be transitioning to reception from full time childcare so it's just irrelevant. You can chat to the head and say you need your son in full hours by X day and he will cope fine. I read threads before and some people say you can tell the school they have a responsibility to provide a full time education or something, but I'm not sure on that.

Re nursery totally normal to ask for her to be potty trained. Just tell them she uses a potty at home, usually they have them in the little toilets too? They'll usually help and accompany child to toilets in my experience and encourage them to pull trousers up or can help a little at first. Just expect lots of accidents so pack lots of spars clothes. And go hardcore on bribery and rewards for using the big toilet. We used a padded over seat thing

Their current nursery did say I can split the funding. It’s just a bit of a faff as I’ll drop them all off (have an older child as well). Come back after one hour, take him to nursery. 1/2 hours later do the same for youngest. And then do 2 different picks ups 3 hours later. I was trying to make things easier by them all going to the same place!

Your son has a right to a full time education. If the one hour a day is their settling in policy then all the other children will be the same. If it is specifically your son then they need to be able to justify why he has a different settling procedure to the others and what the plan and timescale is to get him settled into a full time curriculum

For your school age child, if it’s just happening to him and not all the other kids then this could be disability discrimination. I’d recommend seeking clarity on it, and if it is just your child speak to your local Sendiass service.

Is it a state school/nursery?

Yes

For my school aged child, typical reception children had 2 settle in days and then start full time in September. DS will be going into a separate provision due to being autistic so smaller classroom etc. So potentially they have a different policy? But his settle in sessions were fine so I don’t really understand it.

I imagine you've got confused with the staying in nursery until they're 6 part.

Some people delay their summer born children to start the September after they are 5, and of compulsory school age but it requires applying to the local authority.

Does he have an ehc plan (if you are in England)? You usually need one for a unit, so i assume this isn't about the school not able to cope but rather your son settling in.

Ours does 4 weeks of ever increasing days - starts with 3 hand days, then 5 half days, then staying for lunch and then last week of 3 full days. Nightmare

So I’d have to apply to the local authority for him to remain in a private nursery? Or move back there which to fair I won’t do if they increase his hours fairly quickly.

He does. It says mainstream class which I don’t agree with, so I’m glad the school have still recognised he wouldn’t manage that and put him in a smaller group.
He is usually absolutely fine wherever we go in respect of not being anxious or anything so I don’t feel he needs settling in as such. He won’t care that I’m not there. That’s why I didn’t understand and thought it must be more of a staff testing what they can manage. Just wanted to know if that was right that they can do that (so I know whether to challenge or not), if after the first week they still say to only come one hour a day.

It’s not normal for a nursery to say that a child can’t attend full time (or longer hours) unless they are toilet trained. In fact, if the setting accepts the 15 or 30 hour funding, then it goes against the funding rules. It may also go against the DDA (disability discrimination act). I suggest you ask for the information in writing and then contact the Local Authority funding team.

Re reduced Reception hours. Most schools do at least a couple of days of shorter settling in sessions initially.

The conversation you need to have with the school is about how quickly this increases for everyone and whether your child is being offered the same opportunities.

What level of support does section F of his EHCP dictate? You should be able to access at least the amount of time where he has support.

I wonder whether the school has not yet managed to appoint someone to support your child.

Contact SENDIASS or your local authority inclusion team if what your son is being offered is less than other children.

If you want DS to attend full time, he can unless the school is formally suspending him. You have the choice to send DS part time until the term after he is compulsory school age, or not at all until the term after he is CSA or the beginning of the summer term, whichever comes later but 2.17 of the School Admissions Code (which you can see here) makes it clear it is the parents’ choice:

“Admission authorities must provide for the admission of all children in the September following their fourth birthday. The authority must make it clear in their arrangements that where they have offered a child a place at a school:
a) that child is entitled to a full-time place in the September following their fourth birthday;
b) the child’s parents can defer the date their child is admitted to the school until later in the school year but not beyond the point at which they reach compulsory school age and not beyond the beginning of the final term of the school year for which it was made; and
c) where the parents wish, children may attend part-time until later in the school year but not beyond the point at which they reach compulsory school age.”

You may also find the school suspension and exclusion guidance helpful https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6a63426d9a419980593b2b80/suspension-and-permanent-exclusion-from-maintained-schools-academies-and-pupil-referral-units-in-England-including-pupil-movement-effective-from-26-July-2026.pdf. Most of it applies to those below compulsory school aged. Where it doesn’t, it explicitly says so as stated on page 6.

Some bits you particularly might find helpful are:
“19. Suspending a pupil for a short period of time, such as half a day, is permissible but the formal suspension process must still be followed. Each disciplinary suspension and permanent exclusion must be confirmed to the parents in writing with notice of the reasons for the suspension or permanent exclusion.”

Also of interest may be:

“20. Any exclusion of a pupil, even for short periods, must be formally recorded. It would also be unlawful to exclude a pupil simply because they have SEN or a disability that the school feels it is unable to meet…An informal or unofficial exclusion, such as sending a pupil home ‘to cool off’, is unlawful when it does not follow the formal school exclusion process and regardless of whether it occurs with the agreement of parents.”

And

“33. A part-time timetable should not be used to manage a pupil’s behaviour”

If your preference for DS is SS but the LA has named MS, did you appeal?

What support is in the EHCP?

When does DS turn 5?

The school nursery should not be saying DD cannot attend unless toilet trained. It also isn’t acceptable for them to call you in to change her. You might find it helpful to read the Supporting pupils with medical conditions at school statutory guidance. It is underpinned by the Children and Families Act 2014 and the Equality Act.

Be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. IPSEA and SOSSEN are better sources of information.

Thank you, that is so helpful.
I’m a bit confused as some posters say that jr is normal for nursery to request that children are potty trained. I just feel she will regress a bit at first as she unlike DS is very anxious with new things and people she doesn’t know. And it doesn’t seem like they will be very supportive if they’re saying just attend in the morning if she can’t use the toilet.
I didn’t appeal his ehcp, I just raised my concerns informally and his caseworkers reasoning was that early years is still informal, play based, so he won’t be expected to have to sit there for long periods of time etc. Without getting his echp up, I just remember a lot of targets. And it just says with support from the class teacher. Or some targets say would benefit from small groups.
He will be 5 in November.

Well done, I was going to provide the legislation too. Very useful in challenging schools. ‘Staggered starts’ as they are sometimes called, are very outdated and not needed given the amount of children already in day care.

Additionally a part time timetable must be agreed with the parent.

I’ve just had a quick look. The section is quite lengthy to be fair, but as I said in terms of support it just says by the class teacher or ‘staff working with ‘Lucas’ and different times for each target. Some say throughout the day. Others say for 5-10 minutes daily

Keep the young one at private nursery. Eldest in reception. If you need to apply for flexible working arrangements to make tha work for a year then get that request in.

You can’t keep your eldest back just because his sister is not potty trained yet. Thats not fair.

Unfortunately, ‘support from class teacher’ is very poor. All DC receive support from the class teacher. As is ‘would benefit from’. I would benefit from £1million, doesn’t mean I am going to receive it. ‘Small groups’ is too vague. How many DC? 3, 6, 12, 20? Your definition will not be the same as the LA’s definition. Section F is for special educational provision rather than targets. F needs to cover all special educational provision required. It needs to be detailed, specified and qualified - who (job title and training/qualifications/experience), what, when, where, how, ratio, frequency, duration…

EHCPs don’t contain targets. Section E contains Outcomes. A target is an aim. An outcome is the result of provision. Lots of LAs pretend not to know the difference.

The caseworker gave you poor advice. Don’t trust the LA to give you proper advice. They will tell you what they want you to know and their version of the law, which is often unlawful.

The problem with waiting is the wait for appeal hearings is long. Normal appeals submitted now are being listed for hearings in 2028. If DS is not in school full time, you would be able to request an expedited hearing, but there is no guarantee an expedited hearing would be agreed and even if it is, the wait is still very long. If you had appealed the phase transfer EHCP, it would have been prioritised as phase transfer appeals are.

When was DS’s EHCP finalised?

From January, separate to the EHCP, if DS is unable to attend school full time, the LA has a statutory duty under section 19 of the Education Act 1996 to ensure he receives a full-time education.

Sadly, some people think it is acceptable for nurseries to refuse to admit pupils who are not toilet trained, admit but with a reduced timetable &/or call parents to change DC. This extends to some nurseries saying it too. It doesn’t make it right. It should not happen and you can challenge it.

It seems very last minute for anyone to be telling you what their hours would be. Had they told you something different before that?

Oh ffs I hate the Fanny on of “soft starts” and prolonged transition.. I’ve been an early years lead and deputy headteacher and always had all children in on day one then if individual children struggled made adjustments for those children only! I actually left teaching earlier this year as had a new “advisor” in our trust who hadn’t actually been in a classroom for 20 years and was full of bullshit going against everything I knew to be good practice over my twenty years IN the classroom! My early years practice was always child-centred and research/evidence based but she wanted carbon-copy classrooms not taking into account the very different cohorts we had in each very different setting!

also play-based learning should include actual play, even more important in this day and age when children are weaned on tablets and don’t know how to actually play yet she chucked out my Lego and mobilo and insisted I give the children old records and “loose parts” to play with… the kids in my class couldn’t give a shit about these insta-worthy set ups and whilst there of course is a place, there should be a balanced “play diet”. I also wasn’t allowed train tracks, trains and cars nor dinosaurs 🤭 it was ludicrous! She also insisted on asking what my “learning intention” was for every resource… for children aged 3… they need to socialise with others, be spoken to, listened to, modelling of social interactions, turn taking etc but settled, happy, loved tiny children wasn’t good enough… also I was not allowed to give cuddles if they were upset and told to use visuals to help them to “verbalise” their emotions…

god sorry I’ve gone on a rant but honestly schools are so far removed from good early years practice compared to many private settings with experienced staff actually well versed in working with tiny children it’s laughable!

It's unlawful to deny a compulsory school age child their right to suitable full time education, so no they can't limit him to an hour a day. If you think an hour to day is settle will be ok that's fine, but if it's not in HIS best interests say no. This does not bode well for your son that school are trying to limit his hours already. You never have to accept reduced hours. If they can't manage him full time they either need to request more funding from the LA or support you to have him moved to a specialist provision (but if you prefer him in mainstream he has a right to that too).

Compulsory school age is the term after a child turns 5 so OPs son won’t be compulsory school age yet.

OP’s DS isn’t CSA until January, but he still has the right to attend full time if the OP wants him to and the school still shouldn’t be unlawfully informally excluding him.