Is it normal for nursery and reception to limit hours?

[HelloUpThere]

My DD is due to start nursery in September and my DS reception at the same primary school. They’re both in a private nursery now and do 3 long days a week (9-6). During settling in sessions, the nursery said my DD can only come for the mornings if she’s not potty trained. This was in July. She’s not quite there yet. She will use a potty but for some reason is scared to use a toilet. She also struggles to pull her trousers/pants down so does still need a lot of help. She is generally very emotional at new things so I think the transition to school will be hard enough without trying to push her(plus it’s getting quite late). Is that normal for schools to say?
On the last day of term I was also told my DS will only do one hour a day to start with. He is autistic but this was never mentioned during his settling in sessions. I couldn’t talk to anyone about it as it was the office who told me so I’m hoping that is just the first week. But if not, is that ok for them to do?! I’m stressing about work and wondering whether I should just keep them in private nursery for another year if they have the space still. I was told that children can stay until they’re 6. Long term this doesn’t help with my older child but it just all seems very messy.

OP I think you need to separate out the 2 issues. It used to be a lot more common for pre schools to say children need to be toilet trained. If you can keep you DD at the private nursery for now and use that to make life easier I probably would. It sound as like you’ll have enough going on.

If your DDs main issue is with pulling trousers up and down that sounds like something you can practice lots at home. Is she 2 or 3?

For your son it seems the main issue is the lack of communication from the school. I would send them an email and ask what their plan is to get your son up to being in school for the full day. There probably is one they just haven’t communicated it. Hopefully they will pick this up before term starts.

How understanding/flexible is your employer? Could you and the children’s dad share the childcare for the settling in period?

Parental leave for parents of children with a disability can be taken as individual days not just weekly blocks so that may help aswell but it would be unpaid.

PP have quoted lots about laws and guidelines surrounding a child’s right to educational provision but the reality is you need to work with the school in the short term to get this resolved as fast as possible. Challenging it through the LA or any other process would not be fast.

My son broke his leg in reception and was in a wheelchair. He was below compulsory school age (the term after they turn 5). To start with they said he couldnt go at all because they couldn’t keep him and the staff safe. Then we worked with them on the risk assessments, then he could go for a half day if we went in to take him to the toilet. Then slowly we built up to longer days and school were able to work out how to support him with toileting. But I did learn that actually if school said he could only attend on a reduced timetable there was very little we could do to challenge that. Especially with a 4 year old and their argument related to safety. I know your situation is different but our glimpse into reduced timetable life was very eye opening.

You can work with the school and still enforce DC’s rights.

OP does not have to accept an unlawful part-time timetable.

It doesn’t have to take a long time to resolve the unlawful exclusions. OP can inform the school DS will be attending full time (or if she wishes, part time but more than 1hr) and she will not be collecting early unless DS is formally suspended.

It doesn't matter. If they're enrolled into reception they're treated as CSA re being entitled to suitable full time education.

This!

While DC below CSA are still entitled to attend school full-time from the September after their 4th birthday it isn’t quite as simple as being treated as CSA. For example, if DC can’t attend school full-time, the LA doesn’t have the same statutory duty under s19 of the Education Act 1996 to ensure they still receive a suitable full time education, even if they are on the roll of a school - while the LA has the power to make provision they don’t have the same duty so mostly don’t make provision.

Legally they don’t have to be in fulltime education until the term after they are 5 (Jan 27) so it’s hard to argue against reduced hours before that unless the EHCP specifies fulltime hours or your child is being treated differently because of their disability. Even then councils often don’t intervene when they should.

Are all the children starting for one hour or just because yours is autistic? If it’s just yours you need to make very clear you work and he needs to be in full days and any transition plan needs to be discussed and agreed. It’s usually for the benefit of the school or due to staffing when it’s just one child they apply this to. You can also ask for social care / early help assessment and support and a ‘team around the child’ multi agency meeting so your job isn’t put at risk.

If you are happy with the private nursery and they have space I would stay as long as you can - life is a lot easier with private nursery hours. If reception is suggesting a gradual or long transition then keep him at private nursery and tell the council it needs to fund a 1:1 at the private nursery or someone from the school to take him to and from the one hour transition visits and you will move placements once the new school is happy to have him in for a full work day. You can continue using your early years hours if he doesn’t start reception.

You can argue discrimination if other children start reception fulltime and yours is restricted to parttime but that will mean you have a terrible relationship with the school and it could easily drag out for the first term if they don’t back down and the council doesn’t support you.

The fact they told you on the last day rings alarm bells as any transition should have been set out in the EHCP and they should have told the council about it when they were consulted. I would go back to the Sen officer and say you weren’t told about the gradual transition and it’s not workable and they need to call an urgent meeting. If the private nursery will keep them that you can present that as a solution and suggest the staff facilitate the transition visits - my son’s 1:1 did his transition visits when he moved schools. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for.

Legally they don’t have to be in fulltime education until the term after they are 5 (Jan 27) so it’s hard to argue against reduced hours before that

No, it’s not. The Admission Code is clear parents are entitled to send their DC full time if they want to. That applies whether DC have SEN or not. Whether there is an EHCP or not. And it applies regardless of what the school want the transition arrangements to be for some or all other pupils. The suspension and exclusion guidance is also clear.

Even under CSA, children in reception have a right to a full time education from the beginning of the term.

Nursery class is different and they can offer any hours they want.

Does the school think it can meet your son's needs? Or has it been forced by the LA to take him? The provision in your ehc is not legally binding because it says "would benefit from". You need to get this firmed up to say what he WILL receive. Speak to SOS!SEN.

So as other as have its completely normal for reception to be a phased start. Both mine done. 9-11 for 2 days and the stayed for lunch 2 days and then done a full day on their first week.

if it’s a nursery attached to a school and it’s pre-school - ie she is starting reception next September then they except them to be toilet trained to start although they will expect accidents they won’t change nappies unless there is medical reason or SEN

You don't have to accept a phased start in reception though - the school can offer it but the child has a right to a full time place if parents want it.

So all the mainstream reception children start full time in September. All nursery children are slowly eased in for the first week (and they have said to other parents only mornings if not toilet trained)
DD has just turned 3. I think the unfamiliar adults will set her back and I’ve already been trying to push her a bit hard so I think the best thing for her is to remain in her current nursery for now. One battle at a time! Plus it’s stressing me out about work. I’ve booked 2 weeks off in September so I’m ok for now. But I can’t reduce my hours and do my role. Neither can my partner. Financially it would be difficult as well.
@Grumpyeeyore ask for a 1:1 at nursery? Do you mean 1:1 support? As his echp doesn’t mention anything about needing that.
As far as I’m aware my DS is the only one who will be starting in his separate classroom. I think there are 8 other children in it already who will remain there when he joins. So I don’t know whether they did the same to those children.

They only have to provide full time education from the term after the child is 5.

The nursery still shouldn’t be reducing DD’s hours because she isn’t toilet trained and they should not refuse to change pupils.

No.

That is not correct. The Admission Code makes it clear DC can attend school full time from the September following DC’s fourth birthday.

The LA doesn’t have the same statutory duty under s19 of the Education Act 1996 to ensure DC below CSA still receive a suitable full time education if they can’t attend school full-time, but that isn’t the same as saying the school doesn’t have to accept DC full-time when they are below CSA.

Yes I'm sorry I'm wrong.
They do have to offer full time but if the child is not of compulsory school age the parent can turn down the full-time place

No you don’t have to accept it and we were offered a place in the nursery for the first week if needed

but it is normal practice to phase them in

School nurseries/pre-schools are not allowed to ‘expect them to be toilet trained to start’. They are bound by the same legislation and rules as private nurseries. They absolutely WILL change nappies, whether it’s medical, SEN or just not reliably toilet trained.

At 2, 3 or 4 (or even older) it’s not always possible to know whether it’s SEN or developmental. Hence why it’s against the Equality Act to insist on children being toilet trained before they start nursery or school.

Firstly it’s common for reception children to start with just the morning, then morning plus lunch before full time, often increasing over 3 weeks - you can ask for full time from the start but most dc will be pt at first, but if they have needs to be met it can take longer to get them in place too.

as for the potty training thing, no idea on current law because my dc had to be potty trained to go to nursery unless they had sen. I know it’s tricky but schools have experience of settling kids in and over 3 weeks seems to work

Just to respond to this. They always say this. Conveniently forgetting that early years is only one year and they will really struggle with the transition to year 1, which at that point it’s much harder to do anything as they’re already in the school. It’s wrong.

Firstly it’s common for reception children to start with just the morning, then morning plus lunch before full time, often increasing over 3 weeks - you can ask for full time from the start but most dc will be pt at first, but if they have needs to be met it can take longer to get them in place too

Common? Outdated and does not follow legislation (as already shown on this thread).