Four-year-old with low confidence, rigid thinking and destructive behaviour at home

[Lydia07]

I have 2 boys, a 4yo and a 2yo. The 4yo has always struggled with low confidence despite us constantly telling him he is brave and strong, he can do hard things. He doesn’t seem to be able to tolerate failure.

There’s a few ways in which this presents:

1. he flat out refuses to try new foods - he’s always been a picky eater.
2. he destroys things when upset - on Friday he broke my heart when he pulled all the flower heads off my chives and pulled the strawberries out of the ground because he wanted to water the garden and I told him I’d already done it
3. he refuses to take part in adult led activities, especially in sport (I’m terrified of him starting school this year), so we can’t take him to swimming or football classes (even though he loves both)
4. he refuses to say sorry, ever
5. he loves Lego but needs instructions to do anything. He won’t even try to use his imagination to build something
6. same kind of thing, he never draws. He just says he doesn’t know what to draw, he can’t do it. He loves colouring in, but won’t draw anything from his imagination, even getting him to copy something I’ve drawn is a challenge
7. he flat out refuses to get himself dressed in the mornings and never ever puts on his own shoes
8. he has very black and white thinking, lots of catastrophising, ‘I can’t do it, I’ll never be able to and I’m never going to try ever again’

We try to gentle parent in our household. We name feelings, validate, wait for him to calm down and explain why a behaviour was a bad choice and what we can all do differently next time. We try to teach deep breathing and other coping techniques but he refuses to engage with any of it. Instead he just doubles down. He says he will do it again, that he’s not sorry. I can feel the anger bubbling up inside me then, I can feel my 2yo watching all of this (who already is a hitter) and I want to scream! I don’t. I stay calm, I offer him space or cuddles (he chooses cuddles) and I try again to talk with him about it later.

But nothing ever changes. I should say, my 2yo has a speech delay and gets frustrated easily (hence the hitting which we’re working on). When this happens my 4yo doesn’t rise to it. He doesn’t hit back, he just comes and tells me. My 4yo is also in preschool with a kid exhibiting VERY challenging behaviour which my son internalises. He doesn’t tell the teacher, he just quietly absorbs all the hurt and then it comes out at home.

My hope is that once we’re away from that preschool it will improve but deep down I know that the picky eating, the low confidence, the refusal to engage with self-regulation practices, that’s been with us his whole life. I want to have him assessed but my husband thinks he’s just being a normal 4yo.

I don’t know what to do. I try to hold firm
boundaries but when it comes to him destroying things I’m a bit lost for what the consequences should be. It feels like there should be one but I don’t know what.

Sorry for the long post but there’s so much more, I just feel so desperate.

I do, DH and I try to do that for each other, but it’s something we can work on more

I agree with the more black and white approach - particularly as your little one clearly likes clear, explicit (Lego) instructions. I would focus on clear instructions/rules about behaviour and clear consequences for not following them.

How is he with independent dressing at nursery? Does he put on his coat/shoes/wellies or do his zip there? And when he goes to the toilet? If he can do these things, just wants you to do them, I would use the marble jar idea for this. Depending how tricky it is, something like one marble for each shoe (focussing on just the shoes) or one marble for each piece of clothing he does by himself.

With my DS (very nearly 4), we have had to break down dressing into lots of tiny parts to get him to develop his independence. For example pulling up pants, putting feet into pants while we hold them, putting feet into pants independently and pulling them up. Oddly, he does better with coat and shoes if I ask him to do it and then go away and get something else ready - I think he doesn't like the pressure of being watched.

My DS sounds quite similar to yours actually. We got him to do a club by having him go with a friend to one where parents stay (still working on drop off clubs). He also loves Lego and will follow instructions with help. What got him into free building was my DH would build something simple and then ask him to "upgrade" it by putting on little pieces like headlights etc. But some kids just like to follow the instructions and that's fine too.

For drawing, DS rarely draws at home but he likes to do mazes and dot to dot puzzles. He was listening to Yoto daily and they sometimes do a "draw along" where the presenter describes drawing something very simple (literally a ball and colouring it) and he did fetch his paper and pens and do that.

Honestly, keep investigating autism and tell your MIL to back off. The restrictive eating, black and white thinking, needing clear instructions and being ‘unable to march to the beat of anyone else’s drum’ are clear traits - I say this as the mother of 2 autistic girls. The sooner you understand and put in place support the easier his life and yours will be.

Autism has a strong genetic factor. Is anyone in your family autistic or likely to be? Have a google of hand x ray age 4 and 7. A huge amount of bone growth is yet to occur, so mark making will get easier as he gets older.

Apart from the flower thing which was just plain naughty behaviour he sounds like a normal 4 Yr old . Not every behaviour needs a diagnosis .

All of this autism, diagnosis discussion is just so yawn.
I feel like the country is split into people who want to diagnose children as early as possible and people who are strongly critical of the whole exercise. It’s almost like the gender debate!

Oh yes yawn.

We parents in that position do it just for a laugh, don't you know.

And I mean, posting these traits on mumsnet it’s a foregone conclusion what you’re going to get.
this is mumsnet:
my husband did something that upset me = leave him and raise your children alone
my child’s behaviour is challenging = get an autism assessment

so un nuanced

But you are literally encouraging someone described briefly on an internet forum to be thought of as having a condition. It is just so absurd. And it’s weird how everyone seems to be pushing it, what is the motivation behind it?

He doesn’t need to be assessed. He is lacking confidence and it’s not your fault. He just needs time to develop and grow. When he starts school you should have opportunity to tell the teacher he may need more support or a certain approach to try new things. My 4 year old was similar, he’s now 5 and he is so different after a year of school. He is happy to give most things a go. He does swimming lessons (this went terribly a year ago so we quit, did lots of family swims for fun and now he’s great with his lessons).
Parenting is so hard! There is always something to worry about. With patience, support and time he may be very different in a years time.

Here are some other possibilities:

• many parents (/people) are defensive and insecure and aren’t actually ready to look honestly at their parenting or accept any need for change
• childhood and parenting are idealised in society and on social media so when people are confronted with the reality of it they think there must be something wrong with my child that is external to me, a medical stamp that can explain it all away
• posters feel solidarity with other parents posting and so don’t want to criticise, instead try to make them feel better by suggesting maybe there is something fundamentally wrong with the child rather than infinitely complex dynamics going on between people

I am not saying autism isn’t very very real, I’m questioning why there is this encouraging and leaping to link it to people’s behaviour when it concerns very young children in contexts we all know are extremely challenging and complex already

I could sense this was going to come up.

I feel like you sound very anxious about him and about what's coming in future for him.

Can you work on your own parenting confidence so you feel less worried for him?

There's no point worrying about school for example - school are used to dealing with all sorts of kids and you can work with school if they raise concerns.

It's important not to project big issues onto regular kid behaviour like picky eating or quietness.

What experience of 4 year olds does your DH have? Is he spending time regularly with DC1 and his peers or is he trained in child development?

I had pretty much the same reaction from my DH to getting DC2 assessed. The problem is that they are so similar, DH could see in them how he was as a DC and thought things were normal.

The motivation? Because we’ve watched our children suffer while other parents stand on the sidelines saying stupid crap like ‘have you tried a sticker chart’ and ‘my child would never…’ and would like to prevent another parent and child from going through the distress we did and instead find the right support fast. Nobody is diagnosing, OP described several traits common in autism and were encouraging her to investigate rather than fuck about like super nanny stuffing marbles in a jar.

@StarsShiningOnANighttimeSea

My DC is very very likely ND (only a year into a 3 year wait) and I was so worried about starting school. The structure, all children wearing the same thing, follow the same rules, eat similar times, everyone on the same time table (within reason) has helped them settle and really thrive. They do mask, so after school and end of term can be challenging but they love school overall.

Goodness me! How difficult for this poor little lad, especially bearing in mind the inevitable residual (if not active) jealousy from having been ousted by a new sibling.

I think you need to get back to the basic rule of parenting which is to imagine you are that 4 year old boy and not have adult expectations.

Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:

• he flat out refuses to try new foods - he’s always been a picky eater....Ignore - give him what he likes - just plonk it on his plate without comment. This phase will pass.
• he destroys things when upset - on Friday he broke my heart when he pulled all the flower heads off my chives and pulled the strawberries out of the ground because he wanted to water the garden and I told him I’d already done it - perhaps you should just have let him water the garden again! - it would not have mattered - they get overwatered in a downpour anyway so what's the difference? Give him the hose and let him run riot - like a real little boy! Find some great hose game for him - you might get wet, but so what?!
• he refuses to take part in adult led activities, especially in sport (I’m terrified of him starting school this year), so we can’t take him to swimming or football classes (even though he loves both) - he does not need classes! - he nis 4! - he just needs to run about and kick a ball with his parents - get a goal for the garden and play scoring games. Do not be terrified of him starting school - the teachers will have this sussed as they understand how children function - he will be fine!
• he refuses to say sorry, ever - what is he being asked to say sorry for? - for not being able to behave like an adult?! If he does something really wrong that a 4 year old should know was wrong then just say: It would be good if you could say sorry." Ignore if he does not.

• he loves Lego but needs instructions to do anything. He won’t even try to use his imagination to build something - pack the lego away - it probably feels like just another test to him. He should not be expected to build "something" but simply to mess with it as he chooses to without you hovering.

• same kind of thing, he never draws. He just says he doesn’t know what to draw, he can’t do it. He loves colouring in, but won’t draw anything from his imagination, even getting him to copy something I’ve drawn is a challenge. - He does not have to draw something that is recognisable - he does not need to think what to draw - he just needs to have fun. Please please don't ask him to copy something you have drawn - that is the kiss of death for him! Wet some paper and let him randomly splash/pour paint on it and tip it around and see what happens. Put the result in the freezer and see the wonderful crackled results that come out. Great fun. Drawing is so restricting and inward looking - he needs to break out and make a crazy mess! Get some coloured tissue paper and let him wet bits of it and plonk it on paper to dry and see what the results are. Google crazy messy art activities for 4 year olds. I am not a fan of colouring in personally but if he likes it let him do it - and VALUE it, not regard it as second best to what you think he should be doing. He is learning that you have to draw SOMETHING - you don't.

• he flat out refuses to get himself dressed in the mornings and never ever puts on his own shoes. Give him incentives and value even the tiniest achievement. If he does not need to go anywhere let him wear his PJs at home - or even out - just take the heat out of it all. Please bear in mind that he is watching you dress his little sibling and put their shoes on! - try and imagine how this plays out in his mind!

• he has very black and white thinking, lots of catastrophising, ‘I can’t do it, I’ll never be able to and I’m never going to try ever again’ - this is because you are quite simply asking too much of him - the boy he is, not the boy you think he should be! Do not look up what 4 year olds should be doing - look at who he is and what he really needs.

We try to gentle parent in our household. We name feelings, validate, wait for him to calm down and explain why a behaviour was a bad choice and what we can all do differently next time. We try to teach deep breathing and other coping techniques but he refuses to engage with any of it. - well frankly who can blame him! It sounds utterly grim. I would not want someone naming my feelings, validating them and telling me to calm down all the time - I would probably tell them to piss off! Scrap all this stuff and bring him into the real world - not the world of gentle parenting books! Relax - bring in some humour and clear boundaries. Gentle parenting is fine when done well and led by the real needs of a child (the child in front of you, not the one you wish you had!), not the needs of the adults to have a child who can behave like an adult. You are quite simply needing your boy to be something he is not and cannot be - he cannot win.

Go back to square one. Here is a boy who is probably jealous of his younger sibling who is being asked to be something he is not and cannot be. Childhood is a great time of making a mess in ways you cannot when you grow up - do not waste his - it is to be treasured, not rushed out of!!!

Sorry to be so blunt - but there is something awry in your thinking at the moment and I earnestly believe if you can change YOU rather than wanting to change HIM then things will get beter for everyone.

Lots of luck - just enjoy him! - he'll be a spotty teenager fussing over what he wears before you can blink!

Ok fair enough, appreciate your reply

fwiw mine don’t have these traits and any sort of sticker chart or marbles in a jar wouldn’t work for them, it’s just too phoney. It’s like outsourcing your care and authority as a parent to a jar.

As an EY teacher, i can tell you that most 4 yr olds, boys especially, need black and white instructions/boundaries, whilst being given opportunities to make small decisions, such as "wellies or trainers?", that build up their confidence in their own ability to choose.
Parents shouldn't appease their children but really should avoid setting up Confrontation. Young children don't need long-winded explanations of their feelings, they need clear Instruction.

Why not allow him to water a few plants with his own watering can? Which would have had no detrimental effect on the garden and would have avoided all the upset. Parents really do need to use their own imagination and try to think like the child, otherwise life becomes a constant battle.

The marble jar is often used as a whole class motivator in EY settings. It works well to shape behaviour.

This is so good, I’m printing it out!

Does he ever get praised for things ?

I completely agree with people upthread about the summer before they start school often being awful. My DC2 was a terror at that time (lots of hitting, defiance, rudeness) and settled into reception beautifully. At the time, I was tearing my hair out but in hindsight (a wonderful thing!), I think he was picking up on some negative behaviours he was observing at preschool and had also outgrown his preschool/childminder setting. He took to reception so well and the behaviour problems we had just stopped.

In terms of autism and whether there is something else going on - as the parent of one autistic DC, I agree with waiting until he’s in school. At the risk of sounding flippant, if he is autistic, it won’t go away and it’s likely you’ll gather more “evidence” to support assessment through school. Have nursery ever mentioned concerns? You might be right but he might also just be a four year old with strong preferences and it can be difficult to tell at this stage.

I completely agree with the poster upthread who said autistic or not, you still have to manage their behaviour and parent them. There is no support for this post-diagnosis either, in my experience. You could look at techniques for parenting autistic DC or those with demand avoidance, and try those - it might help and it won’t do him any harm if he isn’t autistic. You could also have a look at The Explosive Child, which focuses on identifying triggers and managing the behaviour rather than on diagnosis. Like all books, it’s not a solution but it might give you some ideas to try or different approaches.

I think you must be confusing me with another poster. I haven't said anything about autism.

I do have an autistic child, but I tend not to mention that on threads like this, because strategies are strategies and it's about finding what works for your child and your family.

You were rude though.

i agree with this. My 3.5 yr old has never drawn. He just doesn’t want to. He will colour in but he’s not that into it and much prefers to build stuff. I don’t like drawing and never have, art is not my thing (although I’m creative in other ways). Conversely, my sister is very artistic and draws beautifully.

Apologies, i was confusing you with another poster

I think this is just a great example of how gentle parenting just doesn't work. Children need firm boundaries, the need to understand tone and intonation of your voice.
We used the naughty step and I have 3 neurodivegent children. It worked well as they had time to calm, think & reflect. Space to breath.... we finished with a sorry and a cuddle and reinforcement of why that behaviour wasn't a good choice.