My ds doesn’t seem to understand consequences

[itstrafficlights]

Maybe this is normal, I don’t know.

DS(5) attacked someone at school quite badly. We were meant to be going for ice cream as a treat; obviously not going now. Ds doesn’t seem to understand that he did something wrong so isn’t getting a treat. Doesn’t seem bothered about what he do just just the ice cream. Is this normal? Quite upset about it.

Thank you for this. You are right there is often a lot of talk about consequences and boundaries without any real understanding of what this actually looks like.

Thanks @SerenitySeeker4 and @Goodmorningeveryone26

@MeetMeOnTheCorner its one form entry. They are separated as much as possible but they do gravitate to one another.

DS2 had that friendship pattern around age 5 as well. I think it's common among children who have the combo of struggling a bit to read social cues, and/or difficulty with impulse control and emotional regulation, whether it's something they grow out of or something deeper. My observation is that children with those specific difficulties tend to quickly annoy the other children, and can struggle to be accepted into wider friendship groups, but if they meet another child who has the same tendencies then they zing together like a magnet because finally here is someone who doesn't mind when they get all silly and over the top, in fact they often absolutely love it and have a brilliant time - all fun and games until they hype each other past the point of any sense

He actually had a really brilliant wonderful teacher at that kindergarten which he moved to when he was just 6, who did incredible things with the children in order to get them to slow down/pause and listen to each other, so DS actually made some less manic friends, which has helped him a lot, although unfortunately half of them were in the year below.

Keep an eye on the transition to Y1. For some children the increase in structure and challenge works brilliantly to engage them and keep them focused but for others it can be an explosive disaster. I have had one which went each way, unfortunately. If you do get the explosive disaster response my advice would absolutely be to pursue assessment at that point. Don't delay thinking it might settle down as he gets used to it. There are enough preexisting signs to warrant investigation if he really starts to struggle.

In the meantime you're working on all the right things. And you're right about long drawn out punishments, they are counterproductive in children with these tendencies because after a day or two they just adjust to not having it any more and so it has no effect and plus you have nothing to then use as a lever for behaviour.

Thanks @BertieBotts . He probably can be annoying but I don’t think notably more or less than others unless one of his ‘trigger children’ is around and then it just gets manic and hyper. It’s a shame because he can and does play really nicely with other children without the mania. We have a class birthday party Saturday which I’m dreading a bit because I know it’s going to be so hard to manage: it’s a party, we expect a certain amount of silliness but it just always seems to go too far and It’ll End In Tears as my own mother would have said! Unfortunately it does often end in him being upset, either because I’ve had to really tell him off to kind of snap him out of it or because he’s ended up hurt through stupid behaviour.

Oh and to address some of the completely bizarre insinuations in the thread.

DS2 absolutely has empathy although it did take him longer than other children to display the socially conventional performances of empathy. He is closer to 8 now and will automatically and dramatically roll off "A thousand apologies!!" but was also genuinely upset and remorseful the other day when his angry reaction accidentally hurt his brother. I've never made him write any letters because TBH he's dyslexic and it would be torture. He has managed to develop these things regardless. I would support him to write a letter if he wanted to.

It is also not anything to do with them being self-centred although I understand how it looks that way, it was more that at the time of the incident he genuinely did not understand what the link was, and I think the behaviour in the first place was a result of him being agitated and wound up (dysregulated) and when they are in that mood they tend to be very pushy and whiny and come across as entitled or grabby. So I think the demand for ice cream and then anger when I said no was also part of that dysregulation. I still think it was the right choice even though I don't believe it taught him anything at all because he was too wound up to learn anything from the whole experience. Sometimes also IME when they are in that dysregulated state they can get stuck on the idea that their behaviour was justified and they HAD to do it so no matter what the punishment is, they experience it as totally unfair. You can't "win" that by punishing them more, not unless you're intending to completely break them. You have to work on it in a bottom up way instead ie building the skills of the replacement behaviour and practising other options so they don't feel backed into a corner in future.

Some parts of development can be delayed without their entire development being delayed. And I believe that for DS, his understanding of consequences, especially social consequences, at 6 was around where an average 3yo's would be. He could follow things like he had been put on time out immediately and he understood that I would not be happy about it and as a result didn't like talking about the behaviour or would have preferred to hide it from me, but he didn't understand why I would then revoke things because of being unhappy. Perhaps partly because that is not something we frequently do. In fact though in terms of consequences in general, he does not do at all well when a consequence is unexpectedly imposed in the moment. He understands and accepts much better when the rule has been previously discussed and the consequence laid out in advance, which means we mainly really use unconnected or generic consequences because that is what works for him. The idea that a consequence works more if it is thematically linked to the behaviour is a myth IME, though one which I believed for a long time. Happening as close to the behaviour as possible and being predictable and clear seems to be what is important. But either way the bulk of the work in changing behaviour is in the bottom up skills supporting work. Consequences can only go so far.

For the party, stay, feed him beforehand, remind him to go to the loo before you leave home and give a bit of a speech before you go where you explain that if he is getting too silly, you will ask him to take a break. If he is not listening to you and following instructions, you will go home.

When he is getting a bit too hyped up, take him out of the area where the other children are and sit quietly/do some cognitive games to calm down like finding numbers of objects in whichever colour. Present this as a necessary thing like going to the toilet or drinking water, rather than a punishment. Only when he is calmer let him back in. Follow through on taking him home if it's getting too much. This is what works for us and usually doesn't end up in leaving early although that has happened on occasion. Good luck!

Just an idea , and completely unconnected to the main point of the thread , but instead of telling him off etc., can you keep an eye on him and make up distractions when he seems to be bubbling over? A toilet run, need to tie your shoelaces, try this bouncy thing, pose for a picture, have a snack/some food, outside for some fresh air because you feel a bit hot etc. It gives him the chance to remove himself from the environment and hopefully reset.

That would work well except that it’s instantaneous. The second they clap eyes on each other it’s like there is a zing noise and things get mad.

@itstrafficlights This is clearly an issue for his education and his teacher. I really do suggest you have an urgent meeting to discuss a behaviour strategy with his teacher because these two boys will be in the same classroom it appears. I would strongly suggest they are separated as far as possible and TA elected to this.

In terms of the party, I think you really must keep him on a short rein! Don’t let him near the other dc. Can you afford your dc causing problems at the party? What might the long term problem be for him if he’s behaving like a mad out of control child? Im afraid I do know. Invitations will dry up. Parents simply will avoid having him and possibly the other dc too. So working on his reactions and avoiding mad behaviour really matters. When dc go to parties without parents, you need him to be included and trustworthy. Also make a big effort with his other possible friends and demonstrate he’s not “that” child.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner how on earth do I keep a child on a short rein at soft play? Actually don’t answer that. This thread is now nearly ten days on since I started it; I’m tired of nonsense advice on here.

@itstrafficlights My apologies. I didn’t see the party was soft play. I thought it was in a hall with games. Yes. In soft play it’s difficult! You can fish him out at the first sign of behaviour escalating and not accept it. So if your DS and the other DS are awful at the party and disrupt it, you will have to remove him. Maybe other DS isn’t going? This type of behaviour does have consequences for other friendships though, and not all advice to you is off, but if you don’t want his poor behaviour to continue with this DS, you have decisions to make about school and play. It’s obviously up to you.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner honestly I would prefer to leave the thread. Ds can be as daft as he wants in soft play; it’s kind of the point.

Ds is not perfect, I know this. I also know no child is. So in eight months of school, he has once been in trouble for lashing out at a child. He should not have done it but also needs to be in perspective here. He had a bonkers mate at nursery (still does) who has a similar ‘fizzy’ effect on him but the overall friendship is rather more a positive one. DS’s school friend is a bit like a puppy that starts mouthing through excitement. A lot of this will change with time and maturity.

As I have said to ds, reception isn’t just about learning to read but also learning how to make friends and navigate those friendships. Really, the thing with the party is because it work for me; I can’t relax. It’s also in the evening so that’s always going to be a bit more tense than morning as he’s tired. But I don’t really think I appreciate being told he’s going to have no friends and no party invites because he was silly at a party

I don’t think you’re understanding what the poster is saying .

The consequences must immediately follow the bad behaviour and the child must also be instructed on what they should have done differently. If there is a time gap of even a few hours between action and consequence, a 5 yo won’t be able to understand how they are linked.

He’s 5 , not 2.

Are you dyslexic? Because I write 5 yo in my response not 2 yo.
If so that’s ok, but I’m going to ignore your comment.

@itstrafficlights You might not like reality, but parents will exclude dc that don’t meet behaviour norms. If he never goes mad with his silly mate again, fine. If he does, and parents notice he’s disrupting a party, don’t expect sympathy. I’ve seen dc very much excluded and class parties don’t last forever. The annoying silly disruptive boys aren’t invited. It’s how it is. Certainly not by the girls.

Consequences are a relatively sophsticated concept for a young person to understand. It involves making an imaginitive journey into the future to a place you have never been. From that place you then look backwards over the route that brought you there. In that process you assess the potential risks.

Scientific research confirms that the human brain continues to develop until the mid-twenties, particularly the prefrontal cortex responsible for risk assessment, impulse control, and understanding consequences. This gap in development often means that teenagers and young adults are still developing the capacity to fully weigh consequences. Peer Influence: means that teen brains focus heavily on social rewards, which can override their ability to evaluate potential dangers.