My ds doesn’t seem to understand consequences

[itstrafficlights]

Maybe this is normal, I don’t know.

DS(5) attacked someone at school quite badly. We were meant to be going for ice cream as a treat; obviously not going now. Ds doesn’t seem to understand that he did something wrong so isn’t getting a treat. Doesn’t seem bothered about what he do just just the ice cream. Is this normal? Quite upset about it.

Op you haven’t addressed what a number of us have suggested and that’s trying to get him to see the other child’s point of view.

You can tell him that hitting is wrong, but unless he feels it and knows it himself, things won’t change. He’s obviously impulsive, so naughty-step type punishments after the fact are pretty pointless. You need to covey parental disappintment and teach him empathy and tools for self control. That is what is going to make the difference.

I think you were right to not take him for ice cream and to the park. I would have phrased it as “we can’t take you out right now as you don’t know how to behave around other children/people”. Obviously I know that’s dramatic, but I think sometimes they need to understand their behaviour in a wider context rather than just home or school.

Dramatic? Really? Is that honestly what we consider harsh now?Are we supposed to be surprised when children behave badly? And to be clear, I’m not suggesting hitting or shouting at a child—there’s a whole spectrum of parenting between doing nothing and going to extremes.
But the fact that a 5 years old having no sense of consequences is worrying. This points to something deeper issues in how boundaries and expectations are being set by OP.

Can I just say some dc don’t feel remorse. They don't get it. Young offenders mostly don’t. Teachers do see this trait in violent dc. Dc just don’t have empathy for other dc. I’m not sure it can be taught either.

It’s obviously right to encourage kind feelings towards others but the fact he hit a child in the first place tends to show lack of empathy and understanding! Probably has limited verbal skills too so hits out when he cannot get what he wants.

Not having an icecream won’t make much difference. Punishments probably won’t either because he will detach them from his actions. They are after the event, However a good talking to might jolt him. Not kind understanding words! Make it clear you are angry and upset. You are VERY cross with him. How dare he behave like this? Make it very clear it’s appalling. He’s not 2!!! His screen should be removed for a period and Id check what he’s watching too. Make it clear that any repeat of that behaviour and he won’t get something he wants far more than an icecream. Work out what that is.

Yes unfortunately some children are inclined to be hitters, I can't remove them from society or chop off their arms the first time, I have to teach them not to hit. And as with everything, teaching well requires a patient and considered approach.

I don't know how teaching children to reflect and apologise meaningfully, in any way suggests that what they did was acceptable?

I'm preparing them for adulthood. If i could choose to work with either someone who is good at apologising appropriately and does so, or someone who never apologises, I know who I'd choose. So that's who I'm bringing them up to be.

If he doesn't suffer from any development delays the reason why he doesn't understand his actions have consequences is yours and your partner's parenting.

I think people were saying it wasn't enough just not going to the park.

Did you sit him down and explain that what he did was very wrong and he must never do it again and you are very displeased with him. It's all very well rambling on about what he could have done differently, but first he needs to know that he absolutely can't do that sort of thing ever again. All the long explanations will go right over his head, he needs to be told off in a clear and simple way that he can't just brush off.

An apology would be nice and the teacher may make that happen. Was the other child actually injured and how badly?

@johnd2 An apology for dc this age is just words they are told to say. It makes parents feel better but often the dc doesn’t reflect on anything that’s happened or been said. We all know there are dc like this and it’s very hard to correct behaviour and get them to understand it’s not acceptable. They don’t really understand being hurt because no-one hurts them. It’s often lack of words and impulsive actions. Dc can learn but it’s clear some just don’t. If op doesn’t try more effective parenting methods showing real displeasure, what motive is there for dc to stop? Virtually none. Even school sanctions have little impact. That doesn’t mean everyone should give up
but clear displeasure, correcting him if he’s rough and being consistent is a good start. A child parroting an apology is often meaningless.

I’d rather work with someone who didn’t hit me.

If a child has SEN or a nature that means it’s expected that they will hit they need better supervision and a proactive approach to avoid situations that lead to hitting.

Reflecting after an event is good of course but I don’t think that should necessarily be linked with an apology note. It just seems that by having pre printed cards it’s as if you’re expecting the behaviour to recur and that makes it seem acceptable to the child.

"a proactive approach" you say? Why not go back and read my post where I said
"things in place like he stays at the front of the queue or goes to the reading corner for 5 minutes after lunch rather than sitting on the carpet."

I can 100% guarantee that my child doesn't think it's acceptable to hit another child, although there is a debate to be had on how much "carrot" Vs "stick" to use on anti socially inclined children to teach them prosocial behaviour.

The main thing is to do what is effective, and communicate properly and calmly with your child and their teacher, and teach your child the skills for their later life.

It sounds like you are saying that apologising is not a useful skill for later life, on the basis that people should not do anything that needs an apology. With that I would strongly disagree.

I think reflecting and apologising should be taught alongside not hitting, taking turns, not eating directly from the sharing plate, saying thank you, etc etc etc

@johnd2 Apologies are simply words dc parrot. Like politicians and others saying they will learn lessons. It’s meaningless unless there’s a strong link to improving and actually doing it. Apologies are frequently over-rated. Many utter them but just carry on! It’s better to never have to apologise in the first place.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I wait until a point where he is calm, and sit down with some paper and reflect and write a genuine apology. It's complete with what he will do next time instead and how the other person will feel. It's more like problem solving, not like literally babbling out sorry while looking down, forgetting about it and going straight back to play.

I mean I'm not sure what else to do on top of all the other things I've mentioned in the thread. , I feel like giving him a clout every time he misbehaves might work quicker but I'm pretty sure it's out of fashion nowadays!

Knowing right from wrong is something that can be taught as chikdren grow up, However understanding the consequences of their actions is a relatively siohisticated concept which many do not understand until late teens or even older. This was something which was brought out in the trials where young children have committed horrific acts of whose consequences they appear unaware. Think of the two boys who killed James Bulger. One was asking if he could go home as though he did not understand that having killed a young child he would not be going home for many a long day.

This is not suggest that a five year olds actions are anywhere near to this category. However drawing a connection between the punishment and the act are not alwys easy for parents or teachers.

@johnd2 Making a child write an apology is no guarantee whatsoever that they are genuinely remorseful. If the dc simply doesn’t understand or feel remorse, it’s just something they do because you have made them sit down and do it. Children who have no remorse will just do it but it’s not genuine! We do have children and teens who don’t have empathy or remorse and no amount of writing a sorry note will change them - they need far more interventions. Obviously if a child really does have remorse and empathy that’s different but dc who repeatedly hit out for years often don’t. It’s not very many dc overall of course but the skill is knowing the difference. A child hitting and writing sorry notes for 5 years (for example) isn’t improving their behaviour.

“Can I just say some dc don’t feel remorse. They don't get it. Young offenders mostly don’t. Teachers do see this trait in violent dc. Dc just don’t have empathy for other dc. I’m not sure it can be taught either.”

Empathy can be taught but you’re right. Many children and young people don’t have it and this will be a problem for society when all these ‘gentle’ and permissive parented children, many of whom are already entitled and feral, grow up. They’ve never developed any real respect for authority or community. They have just been mollycoddled to think the world revolves around them and their ‘big feelings’.

I’m not sure feelings can be taught. Some dc remain very self centred! Obviously parents offer constructive guidance!

I'm not sure whose posts you are reading or what point you're trying to make but I've made it clear that the sorry note is an aid to teaching him to reflect and make a genuine apology including thinking about what he will do next time.
Plus as I pointed out it's part of a wider strategy to make sure known trigger situations are avoided.
If you think part of my strategy is harmful or counterproductive then do let me know, but picking part of a random element and saying it might not work on its own in some situation is not really adding anything.

However if you can expand on "far more interventions" that would be useful as I'm always looking for more ideas to bring up my children to be constructive, considerate, content and effective members of society.

Taking away a treat he was going to get for no reason isn't enough. You should have punished him by taking away something he already has like screens and explained to him why he won't get them back for a week.

I’m surprised this is still going a week later.

@caringcarer I have already addressed the screens thing earlier in the thread; he doesn’t have any screen time in the week and he only watches a bit of TV at weekends. Even if he didn’t, I don’t think removal of screens would make him think twice about hitting again. The only thing that will stop that is understanding why it’s wrong and while I don’t condone his actions, it’s fair to say it hasn’t happened before and hopefully won’t again. I’ve been working with him on conflict resolution, on what to do / say if someone is frustrating him, and when to involve an adult. He got into a bit of trouble this week for telling the same child to ‘shut up’; while I don’t condone this either it’s preferable to hitting!

I would take some of these replies with a large pinch of salt OP, MN is sometimes unnervingly keen on draconian punishments for small children. He’s 5 years old and lost his temper. Imposing protracted consequences that go on for days isn’t age-appropriate and it won’t help. He’s been told off at school, he knows Mummy is displeased and he’s lost a treat that meant something to him (he will make the connection when he thinks about it and processes it). That’s enough. You move on to what happened inside him to cause the behaviour, and what he could do differently next time - which is precisely what you have done. You’ve handled it just fine. If you do this consistently then he will get it. He’s still very little.

OP, I have one like this. He is diagnosed with ADHD, we suspect autism as well although the testing for that was inconclusive, so it is paused until he is older. I'm not saying this to suggest this kind of pattern ONLY happens with A(u)DHD, just to provide some possibly relevant info.

There was an incident at Kindergarten, which where we live is not really school, it is more like a hybrid of nursery and preschool/reception class without learning to read, although it goes up to age 6/7. He was about 6.5. It wasn't violence but it was similarly unacceptable, he absolutely knew he was not allowed to do it and I was very angry/embarrassed about it, and similarly said no when he wanted to get ice cream on the way home, which turned into a whole thing where he was indignant and couldn't understand why I was saying no. It kind of scared me, if I'm honest. Although neither DH or I will get seriously cross very often, our other children will recognise if they have crossed a line and the fact DS2 didn't freaked me out a bit.

FWIW I think it was an entirely normal thing to do, to cancel non-essential fun plans immediately after a serious behaviour incident. People saying there is an issue with the consequence are missing the point IMO. You're right that it would have sent a really strange message, and it was important to show him you were displeased straight away, not pretend to be fine and then suddenly give a punishment later!

Anyway that was probably about a year ago. I've learnt a lot more about the way his mind works since then. The incident also hasn't repeated Absolutely everything you've described to me about your approach sounds spot on. So keep doing what you're doing.

Happy to expand more but if I don't send the reply now, while the thread is bumped anyway, it will die down in a couple of hours and then I'll bump it again with my long post I can see you want it to stay finished so happy to leave it there too. You can also PM if you prefer.

Thanks @BertieBotts . Tbh, I do wonder about ADHD with ds, but with children (and without wanting to generalise too much) especially boys of this age it’s so hard to tell. He doesn’t seem drastically different to most other children but there are certain kids who seem to ‘set him off’ and I’m not ‘blaming’ them, just that when with them he almost seems to get manic.

The child he hit is one such child, it’s been a love hate relationship since the start of the year. They are drawn to one another, can’t seem to leave one another alone but aren’t especially nice to one another. (Ds tells me all about what ‘James’ has done to him but I don’t doubt for a moment he’s just as abrasive and unpleasant to James on occasion.) I’ve tried to encourage other friendships but they do seem to have an almost magnetic attraction to one another.

Maturity will help. And I also hope year 1 will as it’s obviously not as free flowing as reception.

That sounds really hard, and I think a lot of 5-year-olds struggle to fully connect actions with consequences in the moment, especially when they’re overwhelmed or dysregulated. It doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong or that he’s a bad child. At that age they can seem more upset about losing the ice cream than about the actual incident because their brains are still learning empathy, impulse control and cause/effect. You absolutely did the right thing by holding the boundary calmly. Try not to judge his whole character from one bad moment, what matters most is helping him understand and repair over time.

FWIW I second this. I think you handled it just fine. No screens for a week. Honestly….. Ihad a child who didn’t seem to understand why certain seemingly obvious things were wrong. He is older now and still not emotional at all. Not empathetic but definitely not actively unkind. I’d say it took him longer than his average peer to understand emotional matters but he is a perfectly normal, very sociable and well-liked child now.

@itstrafficlights When you see the YR teacher at the end of the year (or you request a meeting) ask that your DS and this other boy are separated. If I was the YR teacher I would have done this already. Free flow doesn’t mean free for all: there should be some structure to the learning and activities. If there’s only one class, it’s difficult. 2 classes makes mixing up dc a lot easier. These types of dc find each other!