Is it abusive (or otherwise problematic) to have a toddler out late?

[Chizzit]

I'm really curious about this as have never thought about it much before and am now seriously second-guessing myself!

My 2-year-old DD falls asleep between 7.30 and 8 almost every night and tends to sleep well through the night. We have a consistent bedtime routine. However, occasionally - I'd say once every 2 months for the past year - she stays up late to 10/10.30ish. This is always in the context of a family member having a birthday party and wanting to go out for an evening meal or to have guests round to theirs. DD is the only kid in the family. Invitations always make it clear that she is welcome and so rather than getting a baby sitter, I always bring her along. She is used to restaurants; doesn't tend to eat much that late and always has dinner before we leave but is easily entertained at the table by drawing or chatting. If we go back to someone's house instead, someone is always playing with her. Me or my DH might have a couple of drinks whilst the other stays sober to be lead 'parent on duty' and drive us home. Afterwards she falls asleep in the car on the way back, gets carried up to bed and sleeps well. She has dropped her daytime naps usually but will have one the next day if we've been out late.

Anyway, when I was out with her at a restaurant last night, a stranger asked me why my toddler was out so late in quite a critical way. It was nothing to do with her behaviour - she was really good and quiet in the restaurant, not bothering anyone that I can possibly discern. But it made me think: is it somehow cruel or abusive to do what I'm doing?

I come from a background where kids being treated in quite an adult way and being part of adult events is quite normal so perhaps this has skewed my thinking on this.

My husband is from a European country and when we are there in the summers all the kids are out with the parents late into the evening. It’s not abusive to allow a child to stay up
late - so long as they are getting enough sleep overall.

British person here and we socialised with our young children a lot as all our friends has similar aged children. My two always loved it as they have always been night owls and slept in to compensate. Obviously avoided doing this on school nights and it wasn’t every weekend. Some people either don’t like the presence of children, have incredibly strict routines or have/had children that struggle in the evenings. Our two are now older, are well adjusted and unlike many teens can converse with adults! Do what works for you.

I couldn’t do that with my kids as toddlers as we both work full time and needed a schedule to stick. But now they’re older and I take them out to events and such in the evening. The biggest challenge is the state of most people on the street at 10/11 at night. Kids have seen all sorts on the bus! I take my daughter to ballets regularly which would be much nicer if I didn’t have a bit of worry about how the trip home would go.

Jesus wept, what's wrong with people, you were in a restaurant not a crack den. Ignore the idiots

OP, I think you need to change your title as ‘abusive’ is really not the right word here.

Do you know what abuse means?

It annoys me that strangers feel the need to comment and question you about why your child is out after 5pm 🤯 There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it OP why wouldn’t you take her with you she’s part of the family I used to take my two to family meals and events at the end of the day it’s no one’s business but yours.

You’re doing perfect. That nosy Parker just thinks she’s entitled to everywhere being child free.

In my experience if the kids were used to it and you were used to it, it wasn't a horrible experience. When we lived in Vietnam it was normal to take kids everywhere and we didn't have family there, so our babies and toddlers/preschoolers used to come out with us everywhere. They'd either stay up, sleep in a buggy, or occasionally sleep on a lap or two chairs pushed together. They were so used to being out at restaurants that they weren't any trouble. They'd draw or chat together or chat with other adults at our table.

I wouldn't care if there were kids there ir not provided they weren't running around screaming.

It's not abusive, your child, your choice. I wouldn't do it, I would just get a babysitter so that I could relax, have some time off and I think generally my kids have a nicer time with a babysitter who dotes on them and they get enough sleep and are happier in a routine (both that night and the next day or two). Equally, my husbands aunt constantly says things like "you obsess too much about routine, it's the holidays, they'll be fine staying up late" so you can't win!!
That's me and my kids though, absolutely fine to do whatever works for you and your child. People will always rudely have opinions and judge whatever approach you take. Unless your child was upset, creating a scene or disturbing other diners then that woman should get out and keep quiet.

You are NOT answerable to strangers. Goodness i would have given such a vicious response. Well done for keeping your cool. Be confident enough in your parenting skills that you feel able to defend yourself in such scenarios.

Yeah I agree with this. My German friend was so smug about her European attitude to parenting and her kids up all hours and being handed around groups of people over for dinner. It was annoying TBH: I also wanted to put my kid to bed so I could have a bit of a break in the evening - but she made anyone who did that feel like a terrible parent, once saying “Why have kids if you don’t want to spend time with them!?” I have spent all day with them and now I want some adult time: it’s not a crime.

Its not abusive, as you know what your child can handle. For example my 2 now older, but at that age would be ok, we regularly were out at ILs home till late on Friday or Saturday evenings, they were fine the next day, just slept in a bit longer. Even now are still ok with late night's as long as its not a school night. We are all night owls in our house.

However I know children who cant handle it, need to be asleep at a certain time, or it affects them greatly, I think in that case its unfair to the child to force them to stay awake, becoming overly tired, upset, struggling the next day.

I was once told I was cruel because my toddler cried for 10 minutes on a flight. I was too shocked to give her a piece of my mind but would love to have a rewind.

Not an issue. Your child doesn’t seem bothered and others don’t seem bothered. You only do it occasionally somit won’t disrupt the overall sleep rhythm. She is also still in an age where she can catch up on sleep in a daytime nap. Enjoying time with family is important and will create strong bonds and shared memories and a sense of belonging - all essential to a child’s well being and identity.

My child gets really wired and misbehaves when overtired so staying up late is for us often not enjoyable. But for special occasions or rare visits from cousins he will stay up and ask to do so because he does not want to miss out. My dilemma has been new years - he really wants to stay up but by 10 or so it starts getting impossible. We pay for it a few days after but it’s a special occasion. He still talks about that one time he celebrated Fourth of July and got to stay up late to see the fireworks.

Its fine. I hope you told the person to keep their nose out of other peoples business

It's fine but I've definitely been in situations where you just want some adult time in the evenings.

This is totally fine and healthy.

As people say many cultures this is more normalised than in the UK. But I've also noticed it's more normal in certain types of restaurants within the UK. One thing I love about going to a lot of Turkish restaurants is, aside from great food, they are usually extremely family friendly and it seems quite normal to bring babies and toddlers for a late meal. I feel a lot less judged than in a say a family-friendly gastropub

If she is happy and it works for you and those in your group, who cares what some nosy person says. I remember when my oldest was around 1 or 2. We went to a summer festival at a National Trust property. It was a really hot day. My daughter would not wear a hat. She was fighting to get it off before you could even set it on her head. She had factor 50 on, including rubbing it into her scalp through her hair. We also stayed in the shade as much as we could. A lady came up to us giving us a dirty look and told us she should have a hat on. Stupid busy body.

People often have an obsession with bed times. What works for one child might not work for another. My youngest wouldn't have been able to stay out late at that age, as once she crashed she crashed and would not have slept in a pushchair. My eldest is a night owl and would stop up all night if you let her. My eldest now 10 years has a later bedtime than my nieces who are mid to late teens. We live near the school and she doesn't have to get up till 7.45. My nieces have to go on a bus for over an hour and get up 2 hours earlier. There are lots a factors involved with what time a child's bedtime is, so I'm not sure why people get so obsessed with it.

I grew up in Spain and every kid in the country is out until that late. Raising my own kids in the UK, I've no idea how they do it as mine wouldn't be able to stay up that late without being shattered. But no, it's not cruel or abusive.

You will always be judged by someone.

You're fine, and logically you know it really.

I wouldn't do this but only because my children would get ratty and the disruption to their routine is too disruptive for me and perhaps I don't live the lifestyle that requires me to stay out late with a toddler every so often.

It disturbs her usual sleep but she sound like she catches up with a nap the next day and it's only every couple of months so is very infrequent anyway.

I see no issue. Your kid was behaving well in the restaurant, she obviously wasn't disturbed by being up late. Just ignore the judgy stranger.

You do you. My dd doesn’t stay up late because she is a nightmare the next day when she doesn’t have a decent night’s sleep. But if it works with your toddler and means you’re more happy and cohesive as a family, do what makes you all happy.

Oh I am so wishing they go to one of those countries now 🤣🤣🤣 they'll have a fit.

I think it's rare for toddlers to be out at 10pm. My dcs have always tended to go to bed late (9-9.30pm) but 10pm would be too late for them and they would be overtired. Our neighbours had their dcs running around after 11pm though, and I'm a night owl who goes to bed at 2am. I don't like the British tendency to put dcs to bed early so that adults can have their child-free evenings (esp when they are in nursery until 6pm anyway, but that's another matter). I think you just have to ignore the judgement. I take our dcs to festivals and there are always families with their toddlers snoozing in wagons while the parents and older dcs continue partying. As long as they're happy and safe it's fine.