Is it abusive (or otherwise problematic) to have a toddler out late?

[Chizzit]

I'm really curious about this as have never thought about it much before and am now seriously second-guessing myself!

My 2-year-old DD falls asleep between 7.30 and 8 almost every night and tends to sleep well through the night. We have a consistent bedtime routine. However, occasionally - I'd say once every 2 months for the past year - she stays up late to 10/10.30ish. This is always in the context of a family member having a birthday party and wanting to go out for an evening meal or to have guests round to theirs. DD is the only kid in the family. Invitations always make it clear that she is welcome and so rather than getting a baby sitter, I always bring her along. She is used to restaurants; doesn't tend to eat much that late and always has dinner before we leave but is easily entertained at the table by drawing or chatting. If we go back to someone's house instead, someone is always playing with her. Me or my DH might have a couple of drinks whilst the other stays sober to be lead 'parent on duty' and drive us home. Afterwards she falls asleep in the car on the way back, gets carried up to bed and sleeps well. She has dropped her daytime naps usually but will have one the next day if we've been out late.

Anyway, when I was out with her at a restaurant last night, a stranger asked me why my toddler was out so late in quite a critical way. It was nothing to do with her behaviour - she was really good and quiet in the restaurant, not bothering anyone that I can possibly discern. But it made me think: is it somehow cruel or abusive to do what I'm doing?

I come from a background where kids being treated in quite an adult way and being part of adult events is quite normal so perhaps this has skewed my thinking on this.

Someone asked me something similar once, ooh 25 years ago when dd was a tiny. I just gave a hard Paddington stare, smiled and said "it's due to me being a very bad mother". They were rendered speechless and back in their box.

Tell people to mind their own business, not an issue at all to have dc up late but with one proviso - their presence should not be disturbing the enjoyment of the location for others eg a cranky toddler crying and disrupting other customers in a restaurant is not appropriate ever but especially in the later evening (happy dc no issues at all!)

@Fupoffyagrasshole

love it! I was the same, mine regularly were asleep in their double buggy at things as we didn’t have access to familial sitters and no paid sitter ever was willing to come back (dd1 is autistic)

Hahah yeah exactly !!

I did slightly regret staying so late at the wedding when she woke up at 4am bright as a button and we were about to go to bed 😂😂 I remember lying in the bed her in the middle with the iPad while we tried to doze and she just kept talking to me 😩

I actually don’t think most people take young children out to restaurants until 10pm or later. Private parties and functions, yes.

I don’t think it’s abusive and it’s entirety go to you and your child what you are happy with, but I think in England your child will be in the minority by being out so late at a restaurant.

It’s none of anyone else’s business why she’s out late she’s being included in family celebrations. Every weekend staggering home drunk is a no one sober parent in a car on an occasional night out will be fine.

And of course they ask you, not the child’s father. Just remember - a mother’s place is in the wrong on all occasions.

I’m also from a background where children are welcomed and expected at celebrations. I learned to have a couple of stock answers ready for this kind of intrusive nosiness - mine was usually “why are you asking?”. A couple of stock answers ready to go will save you feeling bumped into answering and encouraging them to feel entitled to interfere with families minding their own business.

Seems fine to me. In Spain in particular I've noticed that kids tend to stay up later.

That person needs to stick their beak elsewhere.

That would be a consideration if your child was whining or running about or misbehaving in any way. Or if the judgey person was planning on doing drugs or having an orgy or something.

If your kid was tired, miserable, crying, acting out... then yes, I think it would be inconsiderate to keep her out at that time in the evening and spoil the dining experience for others. But your child wasn't impacting their dining experience in any way, so eff that idiot.

It's normal everywhere else in the world, just not England. If you go out in Latin countries, babies are velcroed to family as they are seen as part of the celebration.

If you go to an Italian or Spanish restaurant, you will see little ones out with their family late into the night, same in Larin America.

I think it's absolutely lovely and well done you, whoever made a comment needs to step out of Victorian times. Enjoy you baby, that's why you had them.

Sounds about right for an only child in the family my eldest was always with me when it was just him as I had subsequent children and other family members did it changed naturally. Everyone loved seeing us and helped out it was great x

It’s completely normal but you’re right a minority of people are weird and vocal about it

Get a grip, you're being ridiculous. As long as the child isn't running about screaming or disturbing people it has nothing to do with other diners. Children need to learn social skills and to do that they need to socialise. Part of the beauty of a routine is that if can be broken occasionally and then the child can get straight back into it. Our kids often come out with us and since being tiny babies they have travelled on planes/been to parties/pubs/restaurants. I find it odd when parents don't do this. As other posters have said it is very common in other party of Europe.

Absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing.

Of course it's fine. Routine is great but it has to fit in to the context of normal life, with socialising and events being part of that. DD is older now but never had any issues staying up for family events or on holidays and sleeps in a bit the next day. I find the parents who have given everything up to live in a perfect routine when they have young children tend to be the most miserable, woe is me parenting is so hard, with kids who are completely inflexible and can't be taken anywhere due outside of 'schedule'

I wouldn't comment, but personally I wouldn't do this - it messes up their sleep and I don't think it's great to have a toddler out with drunk adults at 10pm+ accidents happen! It's not in the children's best interests but it's not abusive - loads of adults do it

in some cultures it would seem abusive not to take the kids out with you. there is a whole wide world outside the uk..

Eh? People in the uk don’t live to other cultural norms though do they?!

Sure they do. I spent nearly 30 years living in the UK, living according to my own, non-UK cultural norms. And parenting my child via them too.

It can be problematic for a small child to be constantly taken out in the evenings if:

They are left unsupervised and being put into unsafe situations - so moving about in a restaurant where hot drinks/food can harm them.

They are clearly distressed but the adults with them are not acknowledging this or dealing with it.

This is a regular occurrence rather than for a special occasion.

So if you worked in a pub and saw a small child there every night, ignored distressed and in danger - yes this would be neglect

If, as in your situation, you saw a child being supervised, acknowledged and safe for a special occasion - not a problem.

I agree with this. I'm surprised by all the people saying they do the same because I don't think I've seen small children up late in UK restaurants more than once or twice.
We didn't do it but if it's working for you I see no reason not to. I'm sure we would have been more likely to if we didn't have family living locally.
Surely part of the reason kids are out late in countries like Spain and Italy is because they eat later due to the heat? Rather than them being child-centric?

It's only problematic if it's very frequent or the children are exhausted and begging to go to home/to sleep. What you describe is perfectly normal.

but you can’t use cultural norms of different countries as a criticism of those in different countries who follow them.

and yes as a poster said above in southern Europe children staying up late is a cultural norm due to the daytime heat.

personally, I did keep my children up for social occasions (well one- the other had to be in bed by 7pm or there was hell to pay, and that was a dull time)

Why can’t I? I think UK parenting is hilariously drenched in self-doubt and weird myths about sleep regressions. This thread is an excellent example.

Of course we do. I grew up like this in the UK - it was the norm for family and friends type celebrations.