Is it abusive (or otherwise problematic) to have a toddler out late?

[Chizzit]

I'm really curious about this as have never thought about it much before and am now seriously second-guessing myself!

My 2-year-old DD falls asleep between 7.30 and 8 almost every night and tends to sleep well through the night. We have a consistent bedtime routine. However, occasionally - I'd say once every 2 months for the past year - she stays up late to 10/10.30ish. This is always in the context of a family member having a birthday party and wanting to go out for an evening meal or to have guests round to theirs. DD is the only kid in the family. Invitations always make it clear that she is welcome and so rather than getting a baby sitter, I always bring her along. She is used to restaurants; doesn't tend to eat much that late and always has dinner before we leave but is easily entertained at the table by drawing or chatting. If we go back to someone's house instead, someone is always playing with her. Me or my DH might have a couple of drinks whilst the other stays sober to be lead 'parent on duty' and drive us home. Afterwards she falls asleep in the car on the way back, gets carried up to bed and sleeps well. She has dropped her daytime naps usually but will have one the next day if we've been out late.

Anyway, when I was out with her at a restaurant last night, a stranger asked me why my toddler was out so late in quite a critical way. It was nothing to do with her behaviour - she was really good and quiet in the restaurant, not bothering anyone that I can possibly discern. But it made me think: is it somehow cruel or abusive to do what I'm doing?

I come from a background where kids being treated in quite an adult way and being part of adult events is quite normal so perhaps this has skewed my thinking on this.

Why do you assume the OP’s family get drunk? Most adults in family settings don’t get drunk. The OP is talking about restaurants and the homes of family/friends, not “sawdust” pubs.

Because you’re suggesting that British people are narrow minded (“there is a whole wide world out there”) when it’s not reasonable for British people to be judged against other cultures norms. It makes no sense.

that said, as I said above, there isn’t a cultural norm of keeping children home in the evening in the uk so the smug accusations of narrow mindedness are misplaced anyway .

i grew up with this as the cultural norm in the UK. Not everyone lived in aspidistra land.

I have no idea what aspidistra land is but if you read my post youll see I am saying the same thing.

I think you’re confusing me with another poster. I never said there was a whole wide world out there or said anything about narrow-mindedness. I simply said I found UK parenting riddled with self-doubt.

I hope that stranger never goes to Italy or Spain, where they go out for dinner as an entire family at 10pm 😂. I lived in Spain, and go to Italy quite regularly, and you see this all the time. Portugal too, and I'm sure many other countries in Europe, and likely worldwide too. Actually I saw this in Turkey and Pakistan too, when I visited both these places. That oh so helpful stranger would have an absolute meltdown!

I think Todfler ok so long as they are coping with it. I would not have a primary school aged child put late if they had school the next day. We had friends who socialised on a Sunday evening, due to having to work on Friday and Saturday evenings. One late Sunday with a very overtired child at school on Monday morning was lesson learned.

They're only 2!

Sounds fine to me. I think the norm in a lot of countries is that children go to bed late, especially in hotter countries where they eat their main meals later. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I have read that on here many a time.

I think I'm quite strict on routines etc but if there's a party or something like you say, a few times a year, our kids will stay up.
I wouldn't do it for a meal but only cos I don't think mine would be as well behaved when it's late 🤣 but for a party or at someone's house, I honestly think it's fine!!

We were in Spain recently and it was very normal to see kids out with their families at 10pm or even later.

Nope, you are saying its not the cultural norm in the UK. I’m saying I grew up with exactly that cultural norm in the UK - it was very common.

You don’t read Orwell then?

Completely normal. Nothing wrong with toddlers being out late sometimes.

Mine came with me when we went out for dinner with friends because we travelled for work every few months (as in moved country every few months) so didn't have baby-sitters. They'd sit and eat with headphones and an ipad and be totally fine (now that would definitely provoke tutting from some quarters) - they're now perfectly well adjusted teens who know how to act in a restaurant - they know how to endure being out and about somewhere that's not really designed for them or fun, but that they just have to wait through - eg. a long journey - and that's in stark contrast to many children I know.

My DD went to bed at 2am on NYE!!! She was having a great time partying with all the adults when the younger kids went to bed! I have a big extended family also and had I been really strict with our routine I would never have got through the baby stage. Allowing a bit of flexibility has also helped my DD become the confident, friendly outgoing person she is today - no issues talking to adults and they enjoy her company!

Sounds lovely OP.

I find it more odd that people spend years stuck to a rigid bedtime routine at the expense of a social life. Even sitting in the dark in hotel rooms at 7pm on holiday. Madness.

Each to their own. I would do it.

Unless your child is being annoying - making a noise or running round - people should mind their own business. I think people have a reasonable expectation of a restaurant being child free at night (so not being disturbed by kids) but during the day it’s a ‘kids exist too’ situation. In my opinion.

This sounds great, but how is that enjoyable for you? I have a 2 year old son and I’m so exhausted by the end of the day I can’t wait for him to go to bed so I finally get a rest and I’m not in demand constantly. Taking him out to a restaurant is horrible and something I barely do because he can’t sit still longer than 10 minutes. The thought of my children out late at night to a restaurant I think would actually traumatise me.

Do Italians still take out pre schoolers everywhere at night?

Definitely not abusive and indeed perfectly the norm in many cultures. Tends not to be the norm in Britain but still a fully acceptable choice. Ignore the grumpy person.

If the child sits quietly (which OP said she does) what business is it of anybody else? People are sat eating so nothing inappropriate for young eyes/ears. If she was screaming or running around it would be different but a quiet, well behaved child is fine no matter what the time of evening.

The post you quoted:

“that said, as I said above, there isn’t a cultural norm of keeping children home in the evening in the uk so the smug accusations of narrow mindedness are misplaced anyway .”

You wouldn't even have noticed my kids - they ordered a normal dinner, sat and ate it (or when babies slept).

It does help if you're in a culture that likes children (like PP - we never had any issues in Italy or South America for example - no-one batted an eyelid)

More than once on a plane I had a comment as we got off from someone nearby that they hadn't even realised the children were there.

Yes, I was lucky, I had reasonable children who could be pacified with an ipad and a pack of Haribo, and were happy to eat whatever was put in front of them (less so now they're older in fact), but it wasn't stressful at all - I was more worried the very few evenings when I left them at home with a stranger to babysit TBH.

I think on occasion it's fine. I do think it's a bit off that my DB will regularly let his young (3 and 6) stay up until they pass out from tiredness in front of the TV at 11-11:30pm. It gets frustrating when we are staying with our parents and I want to get DS to sleep by 9pm (which is still on the late side) but DB doesn't want to put his kids to bed, and DS can't understand why he has to go to bed.

Nope. DD is 7. School nights, robust routine. Weekends we're either away or out, she never goes to bed at 7.30pm like she would in the week. When we go on caravan weekends we watch the entertainment till 9/9.30pm. I've taken her to see the Lion King evening performance we got home at midnight.. she loves a late night that one hehe. She's fed, cared for, gets more than enough sleep and more importantly is happy.

Should have advised the do-gooder to wind her neck in. That person would have a fit in Spain where it isn't uncommon to see small children eating with the adults at ten O'clock at night. Once in a while is just fine.

I got hooey from taking my six year old to one of the Harry Potter midnight book releases. Pointed out it was half-term. Considering he was swigging from a bottle outside the Art Gallery, he was hardly in a position to criticise my child-rearing. His fellow drinker told him to belt up. Don't worry about it.

She says in the OP they have a few drinks and one parent has less to stay on parent duty.

So it sounds like an adult meal/event with drinks - if everyone else doesn't have kids, they'll likely all be drinking.

I still don't think it's abusive, I think most adults do it at some point, but it's not in the best interests of the child as it will make them extra tired/mess up their routine etc etc.