Is it abusive (or otherwise problematic) to have a toddler out late?

[Chizzit]

I'm really curious about this as have never thought about it much before and am now seriously second-guessing myself!

My 2-year-old DD falls asleep between 7.30 and 8 almost every night and tends to sleep well through the night. We have a consistent bedtime routine. However, occasionally - I'd say once every 2 months for the past year - she stays up late to 10/10.30ish. This is always in the context of a family member having a birthday party and wanting to go out for an evening meal or to have guests round to theirs. DD is the only kid in the family. Invitations always make it clear that she is welcome and so rather than getting a baby sitter, I always bring her along. She is used to restaurants; doesn't tend to eat much that late and always has dinner before we leave but is easily entertained at the table by drawing or chatting. If we go back to someone's house instead, someone is always playing with her. Me or my DH might have a couple of drinks whilst the other stays sober to be lead 'parent on duty' and drive us home. Afterwards she falls asleep in the car on the way back, gets carried up to bed and sleeps well. She has dropped her daytime naps usually but will have one the next day if we've been out late.

Anyway, when I was out with her at a restaurant last night, a stranger asked me why my toddler was out so late in quite a critical way. It was nothing to do with her behaviour - she was really good and quiet in the restaurant, not bothering anyone that I can possibly discern. But it made me think: is it somehow cruel or abusive to do what I'm doing?

I come from a background where kids being treated in quite an adult way and being part of adult events is quite normal so perhaps this has skewed my thinking on this.

What you do sounds perfectly reasonable to me as that’s exactly what I have done and will continue to do with my children! Ignore them.

No, it's completely normal to have children join gatherings that extend through the evening. It was a restaurant, it's not like you took her to a rave.

We did this too. Of course it isn't problematic.
As you say, in many countries and cultures it's totally normal for families to eat together later and stay out in the evenings. Just because it's less common here doesn't make it wrong.

DS was out at restaurants and occasional parties from being a few months old. I don’t see a problem with it. He was facing with the bride at some point after midnight at a wedding in Italy when he was three.

It’s perfectly fine. But very rude of the person who commented, and reflects badly on them, not you. If staying up late now and again was impacting her sleep, general well being or behaviour, you’d soon know about it at her age. She will be benefitting hugely from being part of a family group, socialising and learning by observation how to behave in restaurants etc. If she copes well with the late nights, then there isn’t a problem.

I would say most people do this. Ours and those of our friends certainly did. I learnt very early on in my pregnancy not to pay any attention to other people’s opinion of what I should be doing regarding my own children.

Around people's houses, fine. I would be surprised to see a toddler in a restaurant at 10pm. At that time, most diners would presume it would be childfree, a not unreasonable assumption. I'd get a babysitter.

This is a cultural thing as well. If you go to Italy or Spain for example there will be lots of children out later at night socialising with family but that's also because those countries are quite child-centric.

I rarely take mine who's slightly older out past 8 because he would be looking for his bed but for a special occasion absolutely I think it's lovely for kids to be able to enjoy that and be part of that. Different if you have a child who's exhausted and crying for bed and struggling but if they're safe and happy and it's a treat then no issues in my book.

I’d raise my eyes more at a primary school child being out late during the week

We allowed our children to join in with family and friends for special occasions, just not usually on a school night. They loved it and it was nice for them to be able to take part. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it at all. The only reason we didn’t do it more often is that they were terribly grumpy and difficult the next day and sometimes it just wasn’t worth the pain!
Our family are from a European country and children there are always up late and out at restaurants, it’s more family orientated there and they don’t really do anything without the children.

Italian family here. Children come everywhere with us, even super late at night. The whole getting a babysitter thing doesn’t exist unless it’s something like a concert, opera etc. When DS was little, I effectively put him to bed in his lie-flat buggy when it got too much for him, or he slept on my back in his carrier.

If the child is not going mad, bring her out! Millions of Italians can’t be wrong

You aren't doing anything wrong, OP. It's normal for children to be part of your lfie! Enjoying a family party and having the odd late evening out with her parents at a restaurant is not going to do your toddler any harm. It's not as if she's up until midnight every night.

Most people do this. This person needs to mind their own fucking business.

Not a problem at all- both our kids would come out with us for late meals when they were young. I have many pictures of my kids sleeping in their pushchairs in restaurants next to the table!

Thank you everyone. These are really helpful replies. For some reason (probably deep-seated insecurity that I need to work on!), this critical woman sent me into a bit of a panic. I don't have any close friends or family with kids so am very much making it up as I go along. We do have the sort of extended family setup where different generations all hang out together in a relaxed way and since my DD seems genuinely welcome, I'd like her to be part of that as much as possible.

For the feedback that a toddler in a restaurant late at night might not be appropriate: I will consider that. Last night's meal did go on til about 10 - lot later than usual. I can see that just a child's presence might be off-putting to some diners at that time of night. Part of me thinks 'so what? Deal with it!', but I also appreciate that all cultures are different and I certainly don't see any other little kids out that late in my part of the UK.

Anyway, I'll otherwise crack on!

Lolz we do this all the time

we were at a 3 day wedding and the 2 year old was up until like 2am one night and another night she was asleep in her buggy from midnight until 4 in the corner while we continued to dance and enjoy our evening !

on holidays she’s out late all the time

I’m very relaxed about it and couldn’t give a shit what anyone else thinks 🤷‍♀️

I wouldn't worry about it. People have different habits, but also, babies and children need different amounts of sleep. My DD has never needed much sleep; her friend at school is the polar opposite. I notice that he'll be struggling to get through Cubs that finishes at 8pm, whereas she comes home at 8 and wants to wind down quietly until 10. That's fine.

I usually just say something like 'oh, she's not a sleeper' and smile.

It’s fine unless a venue is specifically adults only in the evening.

It’s not so fine once they are school age, the cumulative tiredness can become an issue then, as we don’t have siesta to counteract the later nights.

It CAN be a sign of neglect if in conjunction with other worrying and chaotic behaviours (eg parents carting kids to unsuitable places, with unsuitable people and neglecting their needs-happens with addicts and some teenage parents). That’s not what you are describing here though.

But how does it affect you if the kid is behaving? What do you want to do that you feel you can't do if there's a toddler a few tables away? It's a restaurant not a football stadium

We didn't do it cos DS didn't really tolerate it, but he's medically come too so it would have meant taking all the feeding equipment etc too, but even having never done it I wouldn't judge someone else for doing it. It means we've missed out on lots over the years but that was fine, it's what he needed. If we'd had the twisn first, I imagine they'd be much more like your child

We always did this - maybe not in restaurants quite so late only because we’re old and tired ourselves, but I’m sure it happened the odd time.

Definitely family parties/ peoples houses etc.

And of course on holiday.

Though she dropped naps quite early we could still get away with one to make up for a late night until she was 3 or so. After that we just couldn’t allow a nap ever - seriously if this child closes her eyes for 30 seconds she’ll be up till midnight and still awake before 6am.

She’s a really early riser and still at 5 and a half it’s unusual for her to sleep through the whole night. Plus these days school and everything else is more tiring so I’d say we do this kind of thing more rarely now, even at the weekends we still try to aim for a reasonably early bedtime, but for special occasions we will still be flexible. (And her going to bed later doesn’t make her more likely to sleep through or sleep in, weirdly it’s always the opposite).

We don't do it as DS is historically a horrible sleeper. He started sleeping through the night at 16 months and we're terrified to do anything that might mess with that 🤣

But if your toddler is fine with it, I don't see the issue at all.

And we take our toddler to restaurants all the time. I know some people hate toddlers in public spaces but they can stuff it.

That woman has clearly never been to Spain, or Greece, or….

Ignore.

I wouldn’t (didn’t/ don’t) do this.
I think kids need routine and a regular bedtime, plus if I went out in the evening/ at night I would want a break from dc. Mine are bad sleepers and quite hyper though.
My family and friends wouldn’t be impressed at all if we came out at that time with kids in tow but they mostly don’t have kids.
If the kids are tired/ overtired and don’t like it, it’s cruel keeping them up especially if it’s a fairly regular thing. If they’re ok with it that’s obviously different.
I know a good few people who do this, bringing the kids to restaurants/ parties/ the pub. Kids are bored, overtired, falling asleep and crying when they’re disturbed, seeing people getting drunk…it’s not right. Presumably this is not happening when op goes out.
My own parents did this and although at first I thought it was exciting, mainly it was boring and altogether they were not very nice experiences.