14 yr old won't go to bed WWYD

[MorganTreeman]

14 year old son needs a lot of sleep in order to be ok the next day.
Always has done since birth.
Needs masses of sleep.
When overtired, he gets massively overstimulated, goes 'wired' and won't or can't sleep. Not enough sleep and he goes into meltdown.
He's the same now at 14 as he was at 3 months.
I try really, really hard with teaching him good sleep hygiene, getting into bed with enough time to read and wind down, before going to sleep.
All his life I've been strict about bedtime routine and I have had to be because a late night causes distress for him on some sort of neurological basis.
So now he's 14 and has started saying no when I tell him it's time to get into bed and start reading to wind down, ready for sleep.
No, no, no, go away, NO, he shouts.
OK, I say. Stay up then.
The next day, he is a wreck. Unable to get up. Unable to get ready for school. Late into school. Annoying his friends who he's arranged to walk in with because he doesn't show up cos he can't get out of bed. Eventually he does surface in a FOUL mood. As in me and DD run for cover. When he gets home from school, he's all over the place. Horrid mood. Snappy. Irritable. Bad tempered. Arguing with DD. Monosyllabic to me. Blanking me. Ignoring me. Ticking all over the place. Tap tap tap. Hum hum hum. Cough cough cough. He drains of all colour in his face. Goes white. Eyes like saucers. Dark circles under eyes. Yawning constantly. He's like someone who is delerious. This gets worse as the evening goes on. It's painful to watch my child like this.
Then we hit the same conversation in the evening. I tell him he's overtired. He argues at me that he's not. I put my foot down and insist he needs to relax and wind down and get to bed. He shouts NO at me multiple times.
I leave him and go to bed myself.
No screens allowed after 8pm BTW. So hes not gaming or on his phone. He's just zoning around wandering about his room dysregulated but refusing to go to sleep. The more overtired he gets, the more dysregulated he gets, and the more he won't go to sleep. He's taller than me, I can't put him to bed. It's like having a 5ft 9 baby who you're trapped in a negative bedtime cycle of overtiredness with.
Next morning, repeat. Can't cope with alarm, getting up, school prep, or the day.
When he does this on Friday nights and Saturday nights, it wrecks the next day. He either refuses to go out with us for family plans. Or he does come but ruins it with his appalling mood. Or he cancels his social plans with friends. Or he stays in his room all day zoning out doing nothing.
But. ....when on the rare occasion he admits defeat and actually goes to bed at the time i tell him he needs to (this is very very rare), after still arguing whilst his head is on the pillow, arguing how "stupid" it is going to bed at tgis time, I've timed it and within 3 to 4 minutes he is DEEPLY asleep. Sleeps through the night for 12 hours. Then wakes up smiling, happy, fresh faced, colour in his cheeks, good humoured, chatty, basically the boy he really is underneath the crippling overtiredness. Then he marvels all day about how good he feels. And the tics vanish.
We get to the evening, he starts refusing to go to bed again and we're back to all those symptoms again.
So what do I do?
Battle him over bedtime or leave him to it and let him suffer the next day?
He will not listen to reason when I try and talk this through with him when it's not bedtime. He's more stubborn than anyone I've ever encountered.

Leave him to it and stop running for cover when he's rude and bad tempered. Send him to his room when he's being rude.

Like you said, you can't force him and he himself knows how much better he feels after a good night's sleep.

At this point I'd assume it was a really negative way of seeking attention tbh, as what else does he gain from doing any of this aside from getting attention from you about it?

He just hears school mates at school going on about how they stay up till midnight on school nights, spoken with an "I'm so cool" tone I imagine, and DS is copying.
Difference is they don't turn into dysregulated angry pale faced horrors the next day; they can cope. DS can't. No amount of explaining this to him is getting through.
I've never known anyone who blatantly doesn't listen to advice.

I'm always sending him to his room for being rude. Has zero effect.
Ditto screens taken away - he doesn't care.
Threat of cancelling social plans? "Whatever".
Nothing motivates him.

Melatonin.
take him to the doctors and ask for some.

You say he tics. Does he have ADHD?

Absolutely leave him to it
i need a lot of sleep.
he will figure it out eventually
And no chocolate / caffeine sugary frizzy drinks or power drinks at all.

ADHD

I would just keep reiterating that he needs a good sleep and leave him to it. He is 14, he needs to learn for himself that he needs to get to bed at a certain time. I know it’s hard but micromanaging him is clearly not working so let him get on with it

Have you taken him to a GP to investigate why his sleep needs are so high?

Needing 12 hours is excessive and will be interfering with his ability to live his life. Assuming he needs to get up about 7am for school, he needs to be in bed at 7pm? How is he going to live a normal life like this?

I think you need to look into why his sleep needs are so high. It was normal when he was a three month old baby. It's not now.

My dd did this at 14 and shes the same an absolute twat next day. She learned more or less now at 16. She adhd though. She needs alot of specific things to help her wind down. Weighted blanket and mood lighting and melatonin ect. Could that help?

I don't think so as it sounds like he's forcing himself to stay awake to fit in with his friends..... adhd people don't tend to fall asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow which OP says

when on the rare occasion he admits defeat and actually goes to bed at the time i tell him he needs to (this is very very rare), after still arguing whilst his head is on the pillow, arguing how "stupid" it is going to bed at tgis time, I've timed it and within 3 to 4 minutes he is DEEPLY asleep. Sleeps through the night for 12 hours

I have adhd ( diagnosed as an adult ) and my mum ended up installing a little lamp on my bed when I was a child ( I was bottom bunk ) as she would send me up to bed at say 7pm and I would still be lay in bed wide awake at 1am when she was going to bed

Adhd people tend to sleep little and still be fine the next day, they just don't need a lot of sleep in general. The OPs son is really struggling without the sleep so I don't think it is adhd

What time are you trying to make him go to bed? If he’s wondering around in the dark it sounds like he’s becoming a bit of an insomniac - needs sleep, but can’t sleep.

It’s worth pointing out the obvious to him that if his friends brag about staying up late he can just say he was up til midnight - there’s no proof either way is there?

I guess you know this already but worth saying:
“After puberty, there is a biological shift in an adolescent’s internal clock of about 2 hours, meaning that a teenager who used to fall asleep at 9:00 PM will now not be able to fall asleep until 11:00PM. It also means waking 2 hours later in the morning”

So it’s a common problem. Teens this age should need about 9 to 9.5 hours sleep but often get less. I wonder if puberty has pushed your son’s body to this later start time, which is clashing with another sleep disorder.

My teen age 15 usually manages to be in bed at 22.30 for sleep around 23.00 then gets up at 07:00 and then catches up at the weekend (wakes up at 9.30am). Not ideal but pretty normal.

What is your ds’s weeknd sleep regime like? On weekdays: Is he capable of having a nap? If he had a 30 min catnap at 4pm when he gets home from school that might help him cope with the sleep deprivation later.

One other things I’d say is - my DD’s bedroom is now very much her sanctuary. We redecorated when she was 14 so she has new paint, some big squishy cushions on her bed, some cactii and succulent plants which she cares for. I also let her have scented soy candles in her room but ONLY when she’s wide awake not at bedtime hahah. She loves to chill in her room and is usually found lounging in her bed resting, if not actually sleeping.Worth getting your ds a room revamp to “reset”?

8pm is very early to send a 14 year old to bed I’m not surprised he can’t fall asleep at that time. I think you have possibly overbuilt things and have been a little too strict, which has made this into a massive issue causing resistance all the time. Maybe relax with the strict bedtime and you may find that he then falls asleep earlier of his own accord because he realises he is tired and feels better for the sleep he is getting.

You can't get melatonin from a GP in the UK. You can buy it online - it was a godsend for my DS between years 9 and 11 but he would have to be up for taking it - my DS knew he was overtired and couldn't get to sleep for hours so he was very much up for the help. No point giving melatonin to a kid who doesn't want to go to bed.

Sleep begets sleep! Is there any way he'd be convinced into having a regular nap, then he wouldn't be getting to the stage of being overtired? Could he have a 10/15 minute nap after school maybe? Or a nap on the weekends, which may kind of reset him for the week?

My son is autistic and he gets as you have described when he hasn't had enough sleep; erratic, pale, wide eyed and excessively. Thankfully his sleep routine is generally very good nowadays but I do still have to force him into having a weekend nap every few months.

Totally agree. The DS in question would have to be diagnosed as ND and even then it can be hard to get Melatonin prescribed.

I agree with the poster saying to get him to the GP to check out why his sleep needs are so high. Needing to sleep every night for 12 hours isn’t normal. Some teen will do this as a one off, my DH will do it around once a month and it’s like a reset but to need that amount of sleep every night isn’t normal.

I would also stop encouraging him to go to bed. It sounds as though he may be pushing back and you’re both trapped in a negative cycle. A PP suggested a reset on his room, does he have things like a weighted blanket to help him relax? Have you introduced him to guided meditation? And does he leave the window slightly open at night?

If he doesn’t sleep and that causes him to be dysregulated and tic, is he diagnosed as being ND?

@Thanksfoetheextrabbayby I beg to disagree, as an adult with ADHD (diagnosed moderate combined) I need a lot of sleep. Also my 9 year old DD needs about 12 hours to be her best self, however she isn’t as beastly as the OPs son, hers is more daydreaming and forgetfulness which is increased tenfold.

Not All ADHDers are the up all night type!

In this situation I'd try a bit of love-bombing to break the cycle of conflict. I'd get him a weighted blanket, pick a great book, and create a calm night time routine of sitting in with him and reading, but only when he's already in bed. (And not necessarily you reading to him - he could read to you, or you could even each read your own book side by side.) It also gives you an opportunity for some one-on-one time and a nice chat if he's in a talking mood.
It sounds like he's crying out for attention and at the moment he's getting it for the terrible behaviour (this is in no way a criticism, just an observation). It needs a reset to make bedtime more positive and far less combative, and could become a lovely time of day to look forward to rather than dread.

*excessive TICS that should've said

Where is his dad in all this?

When I was in a negative cycle with DC2 I did the love bombing thing avd it did work. I had figured out that the stress was making me frown slightly when I saw them so I made a conscious effort to smile at them every time I saw them as though seeing them was the best thing that could happen.

Very quickly things calmed down at home. They are more relaxed, I’m more relaxed and we get on much better.

Other things I’ve done are keeping their room tidy so it’s pleasant for them to be in, making sure their favourite clothes were clean if they wanted to go out and cooking their favourite food.

It doesn’t have to be big things, I just wanted then to feel loved and relax and it worked for us.

Why on earth are you trying to “send him to bed” at 8pm at 14? He’s probably trying to go to sleep massively too early then can’t sleep so the cycle starts all over again. What are you expecting him to do in his room for 2 hours or so until he falls asleep? I get the no phones thing but can’t he watch tv with the family? As a Mum of a 14 year old who also needs loads of sleep I cannot fathom trying to basically force him to sleep. Teenagers do tend to go to bed later and get up later, you are effectively trying to get him to go to bed at the equivalent of 6pm for adults which is bonkers.

DS does football training until 9.30pm 2 nights a week, then it’s a 30 min journey home. He’s in bed asleep by 10.15 and gets up at 7pm. So nearly 9 hours sleep which is pretty average for teenagers.

OP. As hard as it is to watch him struggle, the natural consequences of poor sleep may be the only thing that helps him connect the dots between HIS choices and how he feels the next day. This is part of him learning how to risk assess his own life. It’s a life skill. How long this realisation will take…only you know.

However, when he’s in meltdown mode, you won’t be able to reason with him at all, he won’t be able to see that connection, so it might be worth easing up on battles at bedtime. Match his energy, whilst maintaining family routines. You can maintain that sleep is necessary for us all, and him especially, but he has to feel that rather than hear you say it I suspect.

Absolutely this. I am not surprised a teenager doesn't want to go to bed at 7, this must be really interfering with his enjoyment of life.

If it's possible to find help for this physical need for so much sleep, that would be my starting point.

Frankly he'd be weird if he DID want to go to bed at 7 (or similar) - who does, over the age of about 5?

Sounds super hard for you all tho. Hope you get it sorted.

I don't think it's possible to force someone to go to sleep for the night at 8pm. Unless they woke up at 4am?!