14 yr old won't go to bed WWYD

[MorganTreeman]

14 year old son needs a lot of sleep in order to be ok the next day.
Always has done since birth.
Needs masses of sleep.
When overtired, he gets massively overstimulated, goes 'wired' and won't or can't sleep. Not enough sleep and he goes into meltdown.
He's the same now at 14 as he was at 3 months.
I try really, really hard with teaching him good sleep hygiene, getting into bed with enough time to read and wind down, before going to sleep.
All his life I've been strict about bedtime routine and I have had to be because a late night causes distress for him on some sort of neurological basis.
So now he's 14 and has started saying no when I tell him it's time to get into bed and start reading to wind down, ready for sleep.
No, no, no, go away, NO, he shouts.
OK, I say. Stay up then.
The next day, he is a wreck. Unable to get up. Unable to get ready for school. Late into school. Annoying his friends who he's arranged to walk in with because he doesn't show up cos he can't get out of bed. Eventually he does surface in a FOUL mood. As in me and DD run for cover. When he gets home from school, he's all over the place. Horrid mood. Snappy. Irritable. Bad tempered. Arguing with DD. Monosyllabic to me. Blanking me. Ignoring me. Ticking all over the place. Tap tap tap. Hum hum hum. Cough cough cough. He drains of all colour in his face. Goes white. Eyes like saucers. Dark circles under eyes. Yawning constantly. He's like someone who is delerious. This gets worse as the evening goes on. It's painful to watch my child like this.
Then we hit the same conversation in the evening. I tell him he's overtired. He argues at me that he's not. I put my foot down and insist he needs to relax and wind down and get to bed. He shouts NO at me multiple times.
I leave him and go to bed myself.
No screens allowed after 8pm BTW. So hes not gaming or on his phone. He's just zoning around wandering about his room dysregulated but refusing to go to sleep. The more overtired he gets, the more dysregulated he gets, and the more he won't go to sleep. He's taller than me, I can't put him to bed. It's like having a 5ft 9 baby who you're trapped in a negative bedtime cycle of overtiredness with.
Next morning, repeat. Can't cope with alarm, getting up, school prep, or the day.
When he does this on Friday nights and Saturday nights, it wrecks the next day. He either refuses to go out with us for family plans. Or he does come but ruins it with his appalling mood. Or he cancels his social plans with friends. Or he stays in his room all day zoning out doing nothing.
But. ....when on the rare occasion he admits defeat and actually goes to bed at the time i tell him he needs to (this is very very rare), after still arguing whilst his head is on the pillow, arguing how "stupid" it is going to bed at tgis time, I've timed it and within 3 to 4 minutes he is DEEPLY asleep. Sleeps through the night for 12 hours. Then wakes up smiling, happy, fresh faced, colour in his cheeks, good humoured, chatty, basically the boy he really is underneath the crippling overtiredness. Then he marvels all day about how good he feels. And the tics vanish.
We get to the evening, he starts refusing to go to bed again and we're back to all those symptoms again.
So what do I do?
Battle him over bedtime or leave him to it and let him suffer the next day?
He will not listen to reason when I try and talk this through with him when it's not bedtime. He's more stubborn than anyone I've ever encountered.

Op you’re trying to keep him to his old routine but unfortunately he’s a teenager. Talk to him about a realistic time. We settled on half nine at a push ten school nights and half ten to eleven at a push Friday and Saturday. He’s told he has to stay in bed as late as possible then up and get ready.

Teens need more sleep than adults.

I totally agree with this poster. My own 14yo does a paper round so is asleep 730/730, VERY unusal for a teen, my 16yo(or 11yo dts) not so much. 14yos are twitchy and frankly you sound like an uptight arse.

I mean my dd12 is someone who needs a good 10 hours on school nights weekends she’s about 12 hours. She does try stay up later but I’m like well if you do then your the one who’s gonna be tired tomorrow. Xx

Is he? ‘Clearly’? Being able to diagnose a neurodivergence from a few details from a parents’ written account of their grumpiness after sleep is impressive…

Adhd ds goes to sleep as soon as his head hits the pillow. He needs tons of sleep too.
Howrver l think this boy in the op’s post has ADHD. Procrastination, ticks, edgy, demand avoidant.
This is super interesting to me.
Goes to sleep as soon as head hits the pillow- tick
Needs tons of sleep - tick
Procrastination - tick
Ticks - constant
Edgy - a lot
Demand avoidant - yes!!!
Please can you teach me more about sleep needing ADHD types?
The above is a description of my DS to a tee.
I'd love to learn more!

I'm ADHD and constantly exhausted. I can sleep anywhere, any time, even when I've taken my stimulant meds. No amount of sleep is ever enough. Been assessed for a million things, with nothing explaining my exhaustion. I am most alert at night though

Exhaustion and chronic fatigue go with adhd. It’s because the brain works so fast and theres no ability to screen stuff out, plus any sensory overload.

I thought exhaustion was just part of adhd.

My adhd dd could easily sleep 12hours or more from 1:30 am onwards. And she’s evil without enough kip.

Overstimulation with late evening screen use, tics, emotional dysregulation, naiveté about friends' bragging - you need to get him assessed for autism, OP.

I’m sorry but I disagree with the posters saying leave him to it - he’s not mature enough to make good decisions around his sleep so needs mum to support. I think I would take him to the GP- can you talk to him when he’s not in an awful mood ? What time is bed time? Work on improving your relationship so he is more open to listening - spend time together, even just watching tv with him , hug him. Can there be rewards for going to sleep earlier ? Bribe if you have to- he will have GCSE’s soon and will definitely effect his learning - also talk to the school if you haven’t already. Good luck

Because in your original post you wrote;

"No screens allowed after 8pm BTW. So hes not gaming or on his phone. He's just zoning around wandering about his room dysregulated but refusing to go to sleep."

Which makes it sound like he is refusing to go to sleep at 8pm, no?

I could have written your post. All of it, pretty much word for word. You have my deepest sympathy because I know how mentally draining, worrying and life restricting this situation can be. I have no advice, because we’ve tried everything and nothing works, I just want you to know you are not alone. My son also has no “levers” so he doesn’t care what gets taken away, and I believe this is the fundamental problem. He just doesn’t care so I have no leverage at all. My son is now 17, but he’s still the same. We cannot be away overnight on a college night because we know he can’t/won’t get up, and he will eventually fail his course if we don’t ensure he’s up every single day. Like you say, it is like having a perennial toddler, and it’s exhausting.

Is he neurodiverse? Sounds like my ADHD/ASD DC especially with the stimmung. An inability in the body to regulate melatonin could cause this. Melatonin on prescription for our DC has been a life changer for us. I'd discuss your concerns with your GP

No.

That might not be the way you intended ot to come across but that is how it comes across to many who are in this thread.

Spot on

Not diagnosed ND.
But accept this may need looking in to.
My understanding of melatonin medicine is that it is a sedative to aid sleep?
He doesn't need help with sleeping because when he does go to bed he is deeply asleep within minutes of laying down. The problem is he refuses to go to bed until way later than he needs. So it's 10pm and he's absolutely knackered, yawning non stop, drowsy, eyes like saucers, white faced, and starts being bad tempered, yet will not go to bed.
The issue isn't difficulty getting to sleep once finally in bed.
The issue is him being wildly overtired yet point blank refusing to go to bed and then being unable to cope the next morning when he has to get up for school because he didn't get enough sleep.
It's actually mentally exhausting trying to parent a 5t 9 male who needs as much parenting around overstimulation, sleep routines, trying to ensure enough sleep and getting him up and into school the next morning as a little child.
That's why I don't know whether to keep trying to teach him to recognise that he's massively overtired and needs bed, or just give up and leave him to it.
I'm kind of at the end of my tether.
If he could spring out of bed the next morning and leave the house on time then I wouldn't care so much, but he can't get up out of bed due to exhaustion and that has repercussions on school.
It's a sleep refusal, not a sleep inability.

Sounds a lot like my autistic DD @MorganTreeman . Especially the pacing about, unable to wind down and go to bed.
Sorry, no helpful advice. DD is 18 now and understands that she needs sleep and routine and that she often gets overwhelmed at bedtime but when she's in that state she still can't get out of that spiral and go to bed.
I know other autistic teenagers who have the same issue. I think it's an executive function and overwhelm thing.

I would definitely have a think about ADHD. Perhaps look up some other behaviours and see if they fit, too.
My DH and DD2 are ADHD- sleep is essential to helping them function but DH in particular finds it very hard to wind down. They are both APPALLING on waking because they sleep very deeply and they find that the transition from sleep to awake is awful. They can also get overtired and therefore not sleep, making them even worse. Routine is key.

I've come to this conclusion too really, that this is just how I am.
Would love to wake up feeling refreshed one day! The closest I get is if I have a nap directly after taking my Elvanse, I wake up feeling slightly more alert 😂
The planning this requires though is immense, as I've got to then get the kids ready and to school running on being tired and unmedicated, make sure I've actually got everything done to allow me to take time to nap etc, and as we know, ADHD and being organised don't exactly go hand in hand 😂

I totally empathise re your daughter, I feel the same inside, but obvz being an adult I have to suck it up and be responsible 😭😂 would love to be a teen again

No, melatonin isn't a sedative. It works by regulating the circadian rhythm which is something that sometimes doesn't happen naturally in people with ADHD/ASD. Melatonin is a naturally occurring hormone that helps regulate sleep-wake cycles. I would encourage you to do some research on it.

You cant leave him to his own devices like some have suggested. You have tried that. It doesn't work.

melatonin is helpful when the body cant get the hang of sunlight=awake time and darkness=sleep time. Getting him outdoors into daylight can help with this too to try and get his body to recognise daylight as we are sat under artificial light a lot in winter. The body produces melatonin itself. A melatonin supplement can help the body to understand when it’s bedtime.

Sounds like a gp appointment could help. In the meantime Pethaps along with extra exercise outdoors during daylight you could try being sneaky:

Try letting him stay up til 9pm with a plan of then sitting with him reading your book until he goes to sleep. “If you’re not tired after ten minutes of trying to go to sleep I will go away and come back in an hour to try again”.

You know once he closes his eyes he will sleep. He will think that’s good i know I won’t fall asleep so I will just pretend to sleep to keep mum happy and then get up again….zzzzzzz.
So he gets what he needs by feeling he has choices.

Reward him with something he wants. Points or somethimg to save up. You did so well on Monday and Tuesday amd you’re feeling great so you can get a fiver towards the xyz you wanted etc

If it doesn't work and he doesn't try to sleep then he needs to be persuaded more. “Close your eyes youre not even trying and we had a deal that you’d try and I’d go away if it doesn't work. You need to try”. Etc

If he genuinely can sleep go back at 10pm amd sit with him like hes a child. Perhaos a forehead massage with lavender and chamomile would help. That would get his eyes closed and the scent could be associated with sleep. If he likes those smells but pure essential oil and mix with a little grape seed oil (or even olive cooking oil) or buy ready mixed essential oils. Dont buy artificial.

What would happen if he’s late for school? He needs to start learning to deal with consequences. A few weeks of detentions every day because he’s late might change his behaviour.
Have a chat today, say you will wake him up at a certain time or he needs to set an alarm. He needs to learn his actions have consequences. If he doesn’t want to annoy his friends he needs to get up.

If I’m reading this correctly you are making him go to bed at 8pm, that’s incredibly early and hes likely to not be tired yet. Midnight, which his friends claim, is too late, I agree, but too early is also counter productive as is removing screens so early. Moving bedtime to 10pm on condition he up by x time is a proportional change and definitely worth trying. I’ve been there, nightmare to be honest but sending to bed earlier than their body clock is saying doesn’t work, and it just causes tension in the house, at least with dd this was the case

That's not quite true. Those with adhd have a different circadian rhythm so tend to sleep later and wake up later, they may also be bad tempered when waking up at normal times, but there's no truth in the statement that they need less sleep than those without adhd, it varies just as it does for any other demographic.