14 yr old won't go to bed WWYD

[MorganTreeman]

14 year old son needs a lot of sleep in order to be ok the next day.
Always has done since birth.
Needs masses of sleep.
When overtired, he gets massively overstimulated, goes 'wired' and won't or can't sleep. Not enough sleep and he goes into meltdown.
He's the same now at 14 as he was at 3 months.
I try really, really hard with teaching him good sleep hygiene, getting into bed with enough time to read and wind down, before going to sleep.
All his life I've been strict about bedtime routine and I have had to be because a late night causes distress for him on some sort of neurological basis.
So now he's 14 and has started saying no when I tell him it's time to get into bed and start reading to wind down, ready for sleep.
No, no, no, go away, NO, he shouts.
OK, I say. Stay up then.
The next day, he is a wreck. Unable to get up. Unable to get ready for school. Late into school. Annoying his friends who he's arranged to walk in with because he doesn't show up cos he can't get out of bed. Eventually he does surface in a FOUL mood. As in me and DD run for cover. When he gets home from school, he's all over the place. Horrid mood. Snappy. Irritable. Bad tempered. Arguing with DD. Monosyllabic to me. Blanking me. Ignoring me. Ticking all over the place. Tap tap tap. Hum hum hum. Cough cough cough. He drains of all colour in his face. Goes white. Eyes like saucers. Dark circles under eyes. Yawning constantly. He's like someone who is delerious. This gets worse as the evening goes on. It's painful to watch my child like this.
Then we hit the same conversation in the evening. I tell him he's overtired. He argues at me that he's not. I put my foot down and insist he needs to relax and wind down and get to bed. He shouts NO at me multiple times.
I leave him and go to bed myself.
No screens allowed after 8pm BTW. So hes not gaming or on his phone. He's just zoning around wandering about his room dysregulated but refusing to go to sleep. The more overtired he gets, the more dysregulated he gets, and the more he won't go to sleep. He's taller than me, I can't put him to bed. It's like having a 5ft 9 baby who you're trapped in a negative bedtime cycle of overtiredness with.
Next morning, repeat. Can't cope with alarm, getting up, school prep, or the day.
When he does this on Friday nights and Saturday nights, it wrecks the next day. He either refuses to go out with us for family plans. Or he does come but ruins it with his appalling mood. Or he cancels his social plans with friends. Or he stays in his room all day zoning out doing nothing.
But. ....when on the rare occasion he admits defeat and actually goes to bed at the time i tell him he needs to (this is very very rare), after still arguing whilst his head is on the pillow, arguing how "stupid" it is going to bed at tgis time, I've timed it and within 3 to 4 minutes he is DEEPLY asleep. Sleeps through the night for 12 hours. Then wakes up smiling, happy, fresh faced, colour in his cheeks, good humoured, chatty, basically the boy he really is underneath the crippling overtiredness. Then he marvels all day about how good he feels. And the tics vanish.
We get to the evening, he starts refusing to go to bed again and we're back to all those symptoms again.
So what do I do?
Battle him over bedtime or leave him to it and let him suffer the next day?
He will not listen to reason when I try and talk this through with him when it's not bedtime. He's more stubborn than anyone I've ever encountered.

My 14 yr old DD goes to bed at 10pm weekdays but later at weekends. She does say her other friends stay up late but by the time she’s wound down it’s normally 10:30pm. You will always find other children that have XYZ but I ignore that and decide what’s best.

Also I extended bedtime from around 11 because clubs finished at 8:45 for pick up (like scouts) so couldn’t continue early bedtimes. I found she slept better with a later bedtime. Could you send him to his room at 8pm but bed by 10pm?

Your post extremely accurately describes my DS, who has just been diagnosed with ADHD six weeks ago. People saying that children and teenagers with ADHD don’t need much sleep, that’s not true. My DS has had sleeping issues all his life since being a baby and is 14 now as well. He has always struggled falling asleep and when he does sleep, he can sleep easily for 12 hours or more. Without sleep, he’s extremely disregulated and horrendous to deal with. Not all children and teens with ADHD are the same with the amount of sleep they need. My DS sounds exactly like yours. He is now taking Melatonin but we’re finding that some nights it works and others it doesn’t. I have heard that it’s not wonderful, but might be worth asking for. However you might not be given it by the GP without a diagnosis, as we asked the GP multiple times for sleep medication before DS was diagnosed, and the GP refused any sleep medication. I would advise getting your DS tested for ADHD.

Sorry if others have suggested this, I haven’t read all the replies but is he neurodiverse?
My eldest was similar but he has ADHD and is Dyslexic so we he started mushroom gummies and magnesium. Also exercise in the evenings, in any way like running, weights or walks etc . The wind down for him was hours so no screens at all after 7pm. I know it’s so hard if they don’t cooperate there isn’t much you can do. I would speak to the GP too.

Tell him he's old enough to decide when he goes to sleep but that he needs to be upstairs in his room by x time and no TV/ phones/ screens etc ( and no movement on get up time). He will figure it out eventually.

Well this is basically what my example was doing. "I'm watching this programme, of course you are welcome to watch it too." It removed the you must do what I say. It worked like a treat for years.

My son is 9, refuses to sleep as he has a racing mind, he has ADHD (still awaiting official diagnosis but its obvious) and the GP has prescribed melatonin. It works so well. You should try this.

I think your son needs to get to his own understanding of how lack of sleep affects him. All the strategies possible aren't going to help if he's convinced you're simply wrong and exaggerating and trying to treat him like a younger child.

The people who might be able to help are the school nurse, his GP, a leader of any sports club, somebody pastoral at school. He needs to hear somebody other than you talking about the value of sleep.

I think you can put boundaries around behaviour ie. if he gets into trouble at school for being late that's his problem, if he's being obnoxious you don't want to do fun things with him.

Also I think not everything will be about lack of sleep. Puberty + hormones will be a factor too around obnoxiousness and risk taking.

It's how you wrote it that's the issue, not our comprehension!

No screens allowed after 8pm BTW. So hes not gaming or on his phone. He's just zoning around wandering about his room dysregulated but refusing to go to sleep.

This absolutely sounds like he's not allowed screens after 8pm and is made to go to his room where he refuses to go to sleep.

I'd take any kind of pressure off. I was like this as a child, younger than your DS. Hardly able to keep my eyes open and insisting I wasn't tired. In my case it was a demand avoidance thing. I really hated being told to go to bed; in my head it was something that happened to small children and slightly embarrassing, so I reacted to that by trying to stay up as late as possible. My parents used to shout at me over it, and I hated the shouting but it never changed the behaviour.

What did was a change of family circumstance that meant nobody was actually bothered when I went to sleep. Suddenly 'bedtime' wasn't a big deal and I just went when I was tired, because nobody was telling me that I had to. I also had the responsibility of waking my younger siblings up for school, which meant I never slept in. I had some late nights, sure, but I'd catch up on sleep the next night when that happened.

I'm autistic, but even if your DS isn't neurodivergent giving him independence over it might work. By that I don't mean giving him a bedtime but not enforcing it if he pushes back, or saying he can sleep when he wants to but giving him 'reminders' in the evenings. Just totally leaving it up to him, no comments on it at all.

This is just an idea, no clue if it would work for you. How about using the carrot instead of the stick? Say "If you go to bed at 10 on school nights, then you can stay up until midnight on Friday and Saturday"? Or, "If you go to bed at 10 on school nights we'll take you to do (fill in activity he enjoys) at the weekend".

Melatonin a tough one it caused really bad nightmares for me

He's a teen hormones all over and sounds very much like he has ADHD and demand avoidance they crave autonomy and the more you tell them what to do the more it escalates with ADHD the brain just can't switch off as tired as you are your mind just races. Its good youre trying the sleep hygiene its important but you need to rethink your whole approach as to how you word things and be quite cunning with it when you want to get them to do something how you word it is important to make it like they are making the choices. Hey im really tired im heading off to bed what about you are you staying up a little longer. He'll learn his actions have consequences and you can't do everything for him he has to face those consequences at 14 they want to feel in control and not be babied its hard because as parents we want to do our best for them. Maybe increase his screen time by half an hour 8pm is early but he may compromise more if you do.

Sounds like my nephew whose on the top mg's for ADHD. Sounds like his brain is firing off and he can't calm it. Turn off the WiFi, fuse box etc, have 20 minutes of this till he's asleep and put it all back on again, gives you 20 mins of chill time too. Don't be bullied by any reaction for doing this! Tough love. Good luck

Before we go down the ADHD route as every poster seem to be doing…

• He’s 14 not 10, maybe he needs to learn off his own mistakes a bit instead of having an 8pm bed time.
• If he’s pacing; is he getting enough exercise? Have you tried a walk in the evening or a sports club like boxing so he’s actually tired?
• How is he doing at school? Is stress keeping him awake?
• Do you think a blood test at the Drs may be in order if you’re that worried about his appearance and moods?
• How’s his food intake? Is it white carb heavy which can sit heavy on the gut and make it harder to sleep.

Welcome to the horrible teenage years!! Buckle up cause you're in for a bumpy ride... This is alllllll really normal!! There is nothing wrong with your child, they are rebelling because they're meant too it's how they shift into adulthood... They need to figure it out without parents controlling every aspect of their life!

When you try to control it gets worse... They gotta fuck up a whooole lot before they realize they are making shitty mistakes..

Nope, set a bedtime and stick to it, dont give in just because he is throwing a tantrum, my kids all have a set bedtime except odd occasions (birthdays, Christmas time-eve/day/boxing day, new years, days out where we might come back a bit later) otherwise same time every night, this has got later as they have gotten older so we currently have staggered bedtimes ranging from 7-10 but as the adult it is our responsibility to make sure they are getting a good night sleep, lets face it all kids/teens would stay up late as they could if you allow them xx

Does he need a hobby ? Swimming , meeting with friends , football . School then bed at 7 pm sounds boring ?

Errrrrrrr.....
He does swimming club after school every week.
He does football club after school every week.
He does scouts after school every week.
He goes out on bike or scooter with friends every week.
He has friends round most weeks.
Why on earth would you assume that he does nothing except school then bed?
So strange of you.
And, um, why do you think he's going to bed at 7pm?
Absurdly strange.
Are you feeling ok?

Because you said he needs gets 12 hours and in order to go to school most need to be up by 7:30 at the latest hence the 7/8 bedtime

if you want proper help an actual correct bedtime and sleep time is required

Melatonin could be the answer. Sounds very like my 14DD who is AsD and ADHD. She needs her sleep but her brain cannot switch off. We also do no screens for 2hrs before bed, but she will listen to music or audio books, whilst doing LEGO or crochet anything basically that involves fiddling whilst her brain is distracted by noise in ear buds. She refuses to get underneath the duvet until she literally ready to shut her eyes. The melatonin is a game changer, it’s like it helps flick the switch in her head about 30mins after taking it to Arrh ok I’m sleepy now. Their teenage brain hormones go wonky this helps provide what they need. Fresh air & exercise during the day helps too. Definitely explore adhd.

Thank you.

Completely normal hormonal thing for teens - something about the later in night production of melatonin. I definitely wouldn’t give mine meds surely that’ll have long term implications in terms of settling themselves to sleep.

its really frustrating I have a 14DD who does the same. Still up when I’m going to sleep then I really have to drag her out of bed (lights on, three alarms, music, telling her - not physically dragging)

One thing worth trying that made a difference is more food. DDs stomach ‘void’ as is become known was making it hard for her to sleep so she often comes down after 10pm for a yoghurt or banana or cereal - I used to say no until I realised she was actually hungry and she slept better. (I thought it was just another delaying sleep tactic)