If you use “natural consequences” what would you do with this 5yo behaviour?

[mumofonetwo]

This is NOT a gentle parenting bashing thread and nor do I misunderstand gentle parenting btw. Genuinely asking for those parents who avoid shaming punishments like the naughty step and generally favour natural consequences but who try to be authoritative (not authoritarian) what you would do / have done in this situation.

5.5 year old DS tired after school and very grumpy. Started being silly splashing water wildly at bathtime, then chucking bath toys etc. Long story short after warnings then coming out the bath he started kicking and punching me.

I’ve got down on his level, firmly held his arms and said we do not hit. But this escalated and he carried on hitting, and shouting “you bum-bum head”. (!)

WWYD

I would have done similar to you. You cannot reason with a really tired 5 year old. Best thing is to get them into bed and tomorrow is a new day!!

You can't have it both ways - you can't at the same time be authoritive and avoid punishment.

Maybe rename 'punishment' as 'authoritive parenting', and stop being so afraid of 'shaming'. There are no natural consequences for hitting, kicking, pinching, or biting. You need to find some way of showing a child that those choices are not acceptable, and direct and swift 'unnatural consequences' are the only way in the moment.

You can talk with your child later about 'big feelings' or using your words, or how mum and dad feel when they are kicked or hit, but you need to stop the hand wringing and give the child a clear message right then and there that you are not going to put up with whatever the child chooses to dish out. You are not a punching bag.

The fear of 'shaming' is all about the parent's baggage and has nothing to do with the reality of bring up children who understand who is in charge. Shame is a normal, healthy, natural human feeling that shows a developing moral compass, a conscience.

Knowing who is in charge, and knowing it's not them, and that their parents are not afraid of their own feelings or the child's feelings, makes children secure and happy.

A firm - 'we don't hit' then walking away from him into his bedroom. Encourage him into bed as he's obviously overtired but if the hitting and kicking continues in there then tell him there will be no story if he doesn't stop.

There's no need to show him who's boss, shame him (how horrible) or punish him into submission, he's just an over tired kid.

I have an autistic DS who's a young adult and the best way to get any child to behave is to give them lots of time and attention so they want to please you - trying to punish kids into submission in not the answer, In fact the worst behaved kids I've ever worked with as a supply teacher were those whose parents were in the playground threatening to punish them with all sorts if they didn't behave.

The first thing I'd do is look at where things went wrong/what I could have done differently. Based on this example, I would conclude that I should have stepped in earlier. Knowing that he was tired and grumpy I would have taken him out of the bath as soon as the wild splashing started. Letting it get to throwing toys and then being aggressive was an error on the managing adults part.

In terms of consequences for him. I would have removed myself from the situation. There would have been no stories or other bedtime niceties. I would have told him that the reason for this is that I don't want to read stories and have cuddles with someone who hurts me (both physically and verbally).

I would try and discuss the issues of last night the following morning, but from a place of calm forgiveness not adding fuel to the fire/dragging out a punishment.

I would tell myself and him that this is one of those things. He isn't a horrible a boy and you're not a bad parent. We all have bad days. What he did was completely unacceptable of course, but we all make mistakes.

Going forward I would remind him of how this incident escalated if he starts with the splashing/throwing things again, with the aim of getting him to recognise when he's tired and grumpy and losing control. The ultimate aim is not for him to never be tired or grumpy again, but to have sufficient self awareness and behaviour control to behave appropriately when tired/grumpy. Part of this will come with age, but you can start now flagging stuff like this for him.

Well natural consequences would be to take the bath toys away if he is throwing them and expecting him to help clear up the mess he has made

Id have probably shouted tbh

We don't do baths for this reason - too much messing about and getting wound up. Shower all the way.
Disrespectful behaviour and hitting (my kids know better than to even dare try hitting) would be loss of privilege for the next day.

My granddaughter could get really grumpy shout more verbally aggressive than hitting out. My daughter in law would tell her this is not happening but I really think you need a hug. Always seemed to work with her, maybe not with every child. So difficult when they can’t express what they’re feeling.

Drained the bath water. Out. Dried. Bed. I’m the adult. I’m in charge. You don’t hit me or even try to.

I would say that I can't let you hit/hurt me, put them in a safe place and move away from them until they are ready to be calm.

Natural consequences are things that happen without you intervening.

Once it's got to that point you can't wait for natural consequences because you're the one suffering the consequences and getting hit and shouted at. You can do logical consequences, which is that Mummy is not going to be around you if you hurt her, and whilst you are doing that you are losing out on time which would be spent reading a story.

Ideally, you'd de-escalate before that. If he's already dysregulated and tired, maybe a bath with lots of splashing and toys isn't the right thing and you could skip the bath and go straight for story time. Or when you saw him starting to get silly, throwing the toys and water, that could have been a cue to get him out of the bath and go through some calm down techniques with him. It's not easy though and sometimes you don't realise it's gone too far until it's happened.

I wouldn't even put up with my 2 year old doing this. I would shout at him DO NOT HIT ME and put him straight to bed.

I don't know what the answer is.Anymore to be honest.

At my mother, she would have slapped my bare arse and put me straight in bed. I never would have done it again.

He's out of control. He's not old enough to understand but he's engaging in pretty shameful behaviour towards you, beating the shit out of you and calling you names. But you re worried about not shaming him with punishments by a naughty step.

I read in the riot act and anything he enjoys doing he doesn't get to do it for at least a week.

That's insanity. I don't even finish work most days until 6pm. What time do your kids get up to be in bed at 7pm? Last time I put DD to sleep before 8 (she was ill and I stupidly thought she might sleep longer if I put her to bed earlier!) she got up at 5.

Sounds over-tired more than naughty. I don’t think any additional consequences are needed.

I think you need to build in some kind of downtime after school as he is coming home very tired and grumpy. Maybe a snack and 30mins on the sofa watching a show or playing on a pad.

Poo time will be faster if you do it after his bath, not before. I’d also flex the routine a bit, there is no reason that he has to poo like clockwork when what you eat can change when you need to poo.

Bathtime, he should be able to be silly in a way that doesn’t involve flooding the bathroom floor. Are you actively playing with him? His escalation sounds like it might be a bit attention seeking. If you were playing a silly game with him - sitting outside the bath then he’d have your attention.

That’s what I’d do.

While in the bath: "I don't want to get wet, please don't splash" - once. If it continued - "I don't want to get wet, so I'm leaving the room. It isn't safe for you to be in the bath without me in here, so I'm getting you out of the bath". No negotiation; you've established a boundary, now hold it.

Kicking and punching - straight into a safe space (e.g. bedroom) - "I don't want to be kicked or punched. I can see you're tired. I'm going to give you some time to practice breathing and calm down, and then I'll come back and we'll talk".

"Bum bum head" - ignore in the moment (don't fuel the fire; the kid is already in fight or flight mode and has chosen fight, the goal is to diffuse the situation rather than fuel the fire), when all is calmed down talk about appropriate ways to express frustration and encourage empathy.

No additional punishment needed - it won't mean anything anyway as he won't make the connection between his actions and any later, unrelated punishment. The consequences are being removed from the bath and time to reflect.

How did lullabies come about then? 😂😂😂

I don’t gentle parent. My five year old has occasionally hit me (not very hard) and told me I am a poo poo head and the like. Just to counter the ‘well MY child wouldn’t …’

i think part of that behaviour is trying to get a reaction so I would be looking to minimise my reaction but withdraw - at that age they want their parents so getting less of me is the “natural consequence”.

So along lines of “you are being silly and hurting me and I don’t want to be hurt” and walking out of the room and giving them a bit of a cold shoulder. No engaging in chat just basic instructions - “ok you can dry yourself now, I am not drying you because you’ve been hitting me” etc.

I never found punishments really worked on my DC whereas “natural consequences” seems to help the link cause and effect more readily. It wasn’t about being gentle more a case of what worked.

What’s wrong with the naughty step? Why shouldn’t a child who has behaved badly experience a little humiliation?
he will be far more humiliated and unhappy when he is older if he grows up to be a brat and people shun him.

I don’t think natural consequences are necessarily things that happen without you intervening, I think it is how you frame the intervention.

eg to a child bashing a toy on the furniture” I am taking that toy away because you will break it doing that” rather than “I am confiscating your toy because you are being naughty”.

i still use this on my pre-teens - eg they are messing about when their friends come round “hmm let me think, am I going to want to say yes next time you ask if Bob can come round if you make this much noise?” rather than “If you don’t keep it down I’m going to ban Bob from our house”

No issue with it if it works. It wouldn’t for DS; it would just escalate the situation and end up with anger and frustration from both sides.

Whatever the consequence is, it needs to be effective.

I definitely wasnt a "gentle" parent but this is " I love you, youre tired, let's get to bed" and all forgotten by morning.

I think it's the natural vs logical consequences thing. Natural consequences happen with zero intervention and are often dangerous and neglectful (e.g. playing with knife - the natural consequence is cutting your hand off), whereas logical consequences have a clear link to the behaviour and are implemented with explanation (e.g. "it isn't safe for you to be playing with knives so I'm not letting you in the kitchen until you are able to behave responsibly with them").

Gentle/authoritative parenting is largely logical consequences, it's just that natural consequences sounds nicer and so people started using it incorrectly and it got out of hand 🤣

I see the usual MN perfect mummy's with perfect kids are on this post.....

I don't do gentle parenting. My kids know the line if they decide to cross it they get told and there are consequences.

Doesn't always work but they get the message. I have 2 boys 10 & 7 so not tiny babies anymore and no issues etc so when they kick up they know what their doing.

I tend to remove their devices and send them to bed. I'm not so forgiving neither so devices and no playing out will last for a good few days. Any apologies are accepted but they have to understand that bad behaviour and disrespect will be punished.