If you use “natural consequences” what would you do with this 5yo behaviour?

[mumofonetwo]

This is NOT a gentle parenting bashing thread and nor do I misunderstand gentle parenting btw. Genuinely asking for those parents who avoid shaming punishments like the naughty step and generally favour natural consequences but who try to be authoritative (not authoritarian) what you would do / have done in this situation.

5.5 year old DS tired after school and very grumpy. Started being silly splashing water wildly at bathtime, then chucking bath toys etc. Long story short after warnings then coming out the bath he started kicking and punching me.

I’ve got down on his level, firmly held his arms and said we do not hit. But this escalated and he carried on hitting, and shouting “you bum-bum head”. (!)

WWYD

Definitely overtired, so time for bed.

No, 7pm is not too early if he is in that state, it doesn't have to become the new normal, just for a few days until behaviour returns to normal.

Tomorrow bed time is also early, as clearly he needs to not get to that stage of tired and grumpy. So if it straight upstairs after tea time so be it. If there isn't time for a nice bath, a quick shower will have to do.

He's only 5 1/2, so hes yr1 and just gone back after half term? He's probably exhausted from school plus the clocks changed recently, so that throws things out.

i would absolutely agree with the poster who says an earlier bed time needed. We had wild bedtimes with my wee one for almost 6 months - a lot of agression and carry on. Brought forward bedtime by half an hour it almost instantly stopped.

if he does keep hitting etc I would block any hits and say to him it’s not safe and then tell him I am going to put him in his room till he calms down. I might try and stay with him but if any hitting continues I go out and close the door.

Yes same here - I tried different approaches and punishment type methods always ended up escalating the problem. Maybe I had the "wrong type" of children but when they were in that kind of mood trying to impose some kind of punishment would have been a complete disaster. I'm not sure how you actually get a child who is in that kind of mood to sit on a naughty step?

I'd have drained the bathwater after a single warning.

If he kicked or hit me I'd have got down to his level and said very firmly: 'We do NOT hit people in this family. Hitting hurts a lot and makes people sad and angry. Would you like it if I hit you?'

I might try a tactic like shoving a large soft toy between him and me and saying, 'Cuddle teddy until you calm down because it is NEVER okay to hit people. You need to cuddle, not kick.'

If he carried on messing around, I'd say, 'I do NOT spend time with people who hit me, ever. So I am going somewhere nice and cosy away from you. When you are ready to be kind and friendly, come and say sorry and then we can have story time' Then I would have walked into another room and ignored him completely until he apologised and meant it.

If he tried to bypass the apology, I'd just repeat: 'I never spend time with people who hurt me. Say sorry and mean it or go away until you are ready to say sorry and mean it.'

When he apologised, I'd ask: 'Why did you think it was okay to kick and hurt mummy?' and I'd expect an answer.
It's a tough question but you can ask it of a 5 year old. Boys are never too young to learn it's not okay to use violence.
Then I'd ask, 'If you feel like that again, what could you do instead of kicking? What would make you feel better?' I'd listen to his answers and come up with some ideas with him, like cuddling a very big teddy bear until he felt calm again.

People think gentle parenting is soft and avoidant. But it's actually bloody time consuming. However, if you can be arsed to do it properly, children grow up with a strong sense of fairness and kindness and thought towards others as well as strong boundaries and solid self-esteem.

As soon as the splashing or hitting starts, firm warning to stop.

If it doesn't stop, out of the bath, and into bed.

Bedtime story to wind down.

Mucking about at story time and the story ends.

The end.

Don't over complicate it or overthink it.

Well, I am tired, and reading this too quickly, but I read your last sentence as "she's 35 now and it hasn't happened for over a year" and I thought was very witty 😀

Could not agree more but I hate the " big feelings" that is very popular these days 🤑

100% this!

Yes DS is like this. Just becomes either mulish and sullen or angry.

Ultimately what we want is to change the behaviour. It’s easy to get angry but some of these examples would have lost DS. It doesn’t matter how firm your voice is, if he’s on one, he couldn’t care less!

I understand that my sons were both different and responded differently to punishment . My granddaughters who on the 2 occasions that I gently and quietly admonished them were mortified that I was in the slightest bit cross of with them , very different to their father! However I often see people reasoning with a child when a short sharp reprimand would probably curtailthe behaviour Children feel much safer with boundaries

The natural consequences of hitting your mom, is that your mom is hurt and sad.

I assume he loves you (most kids that ages love their mom). So I would explain how it made me feel.

That's how I raised my daughter (she never hit me, but like most kids could be mean in other ways). I never hid my emotional reaction from her (though I did it in a way appropriate for a child to understand, I hope - I didn't cry or swear, but I told her if she hurt me).

My daughter is now an incredibly great person - a kind and empathic teenager.

So I reckon honest parenting works.

Good luck. And don't be hard on yourself. There are no easy answers, sadly.

I guess sometimes it is the same thing but we're just looking at it in a different way.

You say "remove their devices and send them to bed" and think of it as a punishment for being naughty.

I would also say to "remove devices and send to bed", but I would see that as because the child is tired and needs helped to go to sleep.

You stick to that for a few days because you say you're not forgiving, whereas I would also then stick to that for the next few days, but see it as embedding good sleep habits.

I'm definitely not perfect mummy or have perfect kids though 😂

@goforadrive this was exactly the same as my child - naughty step hugely escalated things.

It is good to read this thread as I was sure I was the only one having these issues

Both of my kids (one is 2 and one is 4) wake about 10 hours after they go to bed (although the 2yo has a nap). I put them to bed at 8pm because I don't want them getting up before 6am (it doesn't always work). People who say "you need to put them to bed earlier!" every time they see a kid who doesn't go to bed at 7pm must have kids that need more sleep than mine, or love being woken up at 5am.

I would hold him and tell him that you cannot let him hurt you. Then help him to calm down - one of my kids needs space on her own, one needs a hug etc.

Sounds like classic over-tired/overstimulated behaviour and not something you can change without rest and not something you help with punishment. Then either before bed or in the morning speak about why he behaved like that and how it’s ok to be angry/tired but not to hurt people. Connection and then correction always works for us (when I manage to do this instead of shouting!)

With repeated exposure to your calm, he will learn to regulate himself. It’s so hard when they’re tired etc and I would look at whether I can bring bath time/bedtime etc. forward.

That's a logical consequence, not a natural consequence. They're two different things.

From AI: "A natural consequence is a direct, unavoidable outcome of a behaviour that occurs without adult intervention, such as getting cold from not wearing a coat. A logical consequence, on the other hand, is an outcome that is imposed by an adult but is still directly related to the behaviour and is meant to be more meaningful and less harmful than a simple punishment."

Both have a place.

Same here, DD usually goes to sleep at around 10pm and gets up at around 8am on a school day. On the weekend it's more like 7:30am.

Ah ok I stand corrected.

So that would make removing a toy so it doesn’t break a logical consequence, and allowing the child to break to toy would be a natural consequence?

Where would hitting another child so they don’t want to play with you fit - is that a natural consequence? Why would hitting an adult so they don’t want to read a bedtime story be significantly different (at least in the child’s mind - I guess you as a parent have a choice in whether you do or don’t read the story).

I guess I often try to present logical consequences as natural consequences (sort of commiserating with them as I remove the toy for example, like it’s not my choice it’s just inevitable).

Assuming he goes to school the world will take care of shaming bad behaviour (he'll learn) and a natural consequence of hitting outside the home will be that, one day, someone will turn around and slug him back harder (he'll learn). It's hard for kids not to learn (the world is not gentle) and generally they don't turn into brats.

Shhh, you'll be accused of being a perfect parent if you admit your kid never hit you. Mine never hit me or called me names, but it doesn't make me a perfect parent or mean they never had moments.

👋 🍑

Unfashionable no doubt, but it works.

The natural consequence is that you leave the room - “I’m not going to stay here for songs / story if you can’t be kind. To keep my body safe I’m going to leave the room”

Well, it's different because it's not YOU as the parent that's imposing that consequence on the child. You haven't told that child not to play with your child. Whereas if you deliberately withdraw from them, it's you that's putting the consequence on them and it's done to teach them a lesson rather than just because you don't want to get hit, although both might be true.

I don't feel like the first scenario is appropriate for a natural consequence though. I'd intervene and tell my child that wasn't acceptable and either they make it right (by apologising or whatever is needed) or we leave and they won't be able to play with other children for the rest of today. I don't think "not being played with" by one child is a big enough consequence for hitting. If the other child lamped them back twice as hard, I'd think that they'd probably learned their lesson and leave it at that, but I'd prefer to stop the situation before it got there! 😂

Natural consequences are only for situations where everyone is safe. You wouldn't let them play with matches, and let burning the house down be a natural consequence.

No it doesn't. There's been dozens and dozens of studies over decades showing it doesn't work.

If it’s any consolation, I know (and teach) a lot of small children who have been more challenging since the clocks went back!