If you use “natural consequences” what would you do with this 5yo behaviour?

[mumofonetwo]

This is NOT a gentle parenting bashing thread and nor do I misunderstand gentle parenting btw. Genuinely asking for those parents who avoid shaming punishments like the naughty step and generally favour natural consequences but who try to be authoritative (not authoritarian) what you would do / have done in this situation.

5.5 year old DS tired after school and very grumpy. Started being silly splashing water wildly at bathtime, then chucking bath toys etc. Long story short after warnings then coming out the bath he started kicking and punching me.

I’ve got down on his level, firmly held his arms and said we do not hit. But this escalated and he carried on hitting, and shouting “you bum-bum head”. (!)

WWYD

This is exactly what I would do

Me too - it's amazing how these fads blow in and suddenly everyone is bewildering small children with them.

A natural consequence to that behaviour (hitting) would be to withdraw yourself for a bit. By removing your eye contact, touch and chat he will know it’s wrong.

we would probably have said - no hitting at that age and then carried on the routine but with less energy. Once he’s done the next stage of the routine I’d give him a big cuddle and say, I know you’re tired and angry let’s read a story so you can get a good sleep.

sanctions and seclusions at that age when they’re tired won’t work as they’re already so disregulated. It won’t sink in and instead make them angry or cry. Therefore delayed bedtime.

if needed you could always have a little chat the next day and say if you’re angry you can stamp your feet or squeeze that ball - but no hurting please.

We had this when my daughter started reception. We would stop her from hurting us by moving out of the way, we would sit her so there space between us and her, it would often happen at the table so we would sit her next to the table. Give her a few moments to defuse and then I get her to sit on my knee and we discuss what happened and what behaviour was acceptable and not acceptable and make adjustments about what she could do over the rest of the day or next few days.

We had a really bad day where she was hysterical when I picked her up from school. She climbed fencing and was wild. In the process of wrestling her home she bit me. Eventually I did get her home and she calmed down and was able to tell me that something had happened at school that had frightened her and left her scared and didn't know what to do. We stripped back what we were doing over the weekend. Simple games, no tech, "treats" which continued for the following week too. We spoke about how it was understandable that she was distressed by what had happened and we would talk to the school so that it couldn't happen again but nevertheless it was never acceptable to bite or hurt anyone ever. We spoke to school and they explained that it was understandable that it was scary for her and gave her options for getting help.

I'd review whether the bed time is too stimulating. I find bedtime routines vary with the child. We could never bath my daughter before bed as it makes her hyper especially if there were toys. Her bed time routine is go up at 7 medication, pjs, teeth. Drink and story on the floor, second story in bed, toilet and teeth. She then has an audio book for 10 minutes and then it's swapped for meditation which is on overnight. She goes to sleep between 8 and half past. She needs time to lie in bed and have quiet time before she is ready to go to sleep. We have had various routines and the time she has gone to sleep has been steady at 8 to 8.30 and needing 30-45+ minutes of decompression time.

In general I find removing her from the situation sitting her on a step of the stairs or on the sofa depending on where we are in the house for a minute or two really helps to start the diffusing process. We don't do a fix time or call it a naughty step or time out. It is a case of going this situation is escalating let's put a break in place and take you away from it to stop further escalation and then always putting her on my knee to talk to her. It means our heads are on the same level and it means she's getting a hug which calms her down and then more willing to listen.

‘Just ONE story tonight’ …
jeeez

This is why I left teaching …

If they are downstairs in a communal space would you not reply that it is they that need to distance themself - by going to their own room ?
would you leave the kitchen or front room at their behest ?

I’m not a gentle parent. I’d have held his arms too. After the bum bum head comment I would’ve said firmly “you don’t talk to mummy like that and if you don’t start talking nicely to mummy the consequence will be…” Consequences need to be enforceable in short time frame before they forget or move on eg no pudding after dinner. And always insist on a genuine apology but then move on

They do it themselves. They run to their rooms to scream and cry. If I try to follow they tell me to go away. I respect this as far as possible. I wouldn't leave a shared space for them, its my house!

I’d be removing something from him that he really likes. Tell him that when he starts to behave he will get it back. He is clearly over tired though and children often act irrationally when worked up and in a state.

If you’re suggesting I physically assault my child, I WON’T be doing that. When you say “it works” I assume you mean it diminishes the behaviour which is inconvenient to YOU, rather than supports the child’s needs.

This is exactly what I would try to do. To me this is authoritative parenting - calm, clear boundaries but still with empathy and love for your small child who is exhausted & disregulated

Oh ok phew
I needed a lay down thinking a grown adult would do that xx

If the issue is he's tired by bedtime, the solution would be an earlier bedtime (which could be seen as a consequence). I'd also have quickly finished washing and taken out of the bath when they started splashing, so they would have missed out on bath play time.

Natural consequences are not imposed - I think you mean logical consequences.
We tend to do "you need to earn XYZ" so he hasn't earned story. If you want to phrase it differently, "you must need to sleep because I can see you're tired".

For me, getting straight out of the bath and into bed with no story is the natural consequence. I don't want to get wet and I obviously don't want to spend time with someone who hits me.

Older children I think you could do an earlier bedtime for a few nights and link it as a consequence but I am not convinced a 5yo would fully understand or remember what had happened 24h earlier.

I used the 'naughty step' once with ds2....he was around 3..he still remembers and is now 18! Bottom step of stairs and I closed sitting room door for 5/10 mins..that was it!

Hi OP,

Have a look at this article https://www.peacefulparenthappykids.com/read/7-year-old-hitting-parents-tantrumming

I used to do pre-emptive food after school- in fact I still do now she’s 14- she could get too hungry to know she was hungry, and that was the commonest trigger for tears after tired; and enforced early bedtime (again, would get over-hyped when tired and not behave like a tired child- but would be beyond). If very tired, just one story and a cuddle then she’d fall asleep to a story playing on the iPod.

If we got to the point of throwing toys, the bath would be over PDQ and straight to towel, teeth, wee, bed. One story. If it got to violence (I don’t remember that happening) I think I agree that I would have held her arms down to prevent her hitting me, and said NO very firmly. Then more gently, “If you hit me, you will still have to go to bed, but I won’t want to read you a story or stay with you, so you’ll have to be in bed on your own.”

Of course it’s easy to say from here, but I do think food and gentle winding-down after school are all that are needed. Nothing exciting, just a nice tea that they like, some quiet play or gentle tv like CBeebies, then bath and bed. Or if they aren’t too grubby, just a quick wash and teeth and bed. Sometimes extra stories are more valuable than a bath.