Mortified by my 4 year old - what am I doing wrong?

[TeainanIV]

Having a really difficult time with my four year old DD at the moment. Her behaviour just seems to have massively deteriorated in the last 6 months or so. She throws huge tantrums, shouts and screams, constantly defiant, stubborn to the extreme and even hits us now and then. We never used to have such extreme behaviour and I can't help but feel like her Dad and I are failing in some way.

She's had a big year - we welcome DD2 last November and she's a very clingy baby. She's also started Reception in September and we're navigating all the feeling that come with that. I've struggled with a little PND after DD2 arrived but tried to keep that hidden from my eldest.

Today I've hit my limit - with a baby that's had hand, foot and mouth all half term and a four year old who never seems content. We've just had a playdate with a school friend and I am so embarrassed by her behaviour. I've had to carry her out of the house kicking and screaming because she wanted to go in to the garden but couldn't as her friend had an appointment. They had a lovely play together and she's spoiled it. I had to chase her around the house to get her to leave, all whilst she's shouting and screaming, hitting and kicking me. I'm mortified and could cry - it's only the second time we've had a playdate with this friend and both times have ended like this!

I feel like I'm failing her, we try and focus on the positives and heap praise on her for positive behaviours. We don't always get it right though, and I dare say she's feeding off some of the stress her Dad and I are under. We're both full time and have found this current phase of parenting and managing the house very overwhelming. I'm now worried it's rubbing off on our eldest.

I'm just so upset and really am not enjoying where we are at the moment. Feeling delicate so please advice is welcome but be kind 🙏🏼

There are a few thread like this at the moment. This half term is always a lomg hard one (yr 1 can be worse!) and then add in clock change.

School is exhausting. Strip every thing back, only a couple clubs, earlier nights, no big days out, cosy films at home and low stress. Be aware that there will be lots of Christmas excitment from school so low key at home is the way to go - don’t get a Christmas elf.

Urgh this sounds horrible. Mine had HFM and they were in real pain, it was horrible.

Is this genuinely what life is always like now and not just a half term/ hand foot and mouth combo that you can't see the end of? If it is, I'm going to suggest something that will not be popular but is what I would do. If you can afford it, one of you should take some parental leave and concentrate on managing the house and the kids for a few weeks without the stress of work and see if the behaviour improves. If it doesn't then there may be more at play than just stress, school, new sibling and further investigation into DD may be advisable. If it does, then something in your lives needs to change. I'm not saying either of you should give up work entirely but working fewer hours between you somehow.

I would love to but we just can't afford it. Our finances are stretched as it is, reducing hours just isn't an option as much as we want it to be. It's definitely ramped up over the last few weeks but life is like this a lot at the moment. She can be sweet in between and can be such a caring child - but I really am so upset about her behaviour recently. This isn't the child I know. I am gutted about the HFM as I'd wanted this half term week to be time for us to reconnect and me to give her some one on one time. That's sadly not happened!

Take a look at your language - it is very harsh on your family. You're a regular family doing a tough job.

Loads of 4yo kids have tantrums - they are no bloody fun but no reason to be 'mortified'.

I've struggled with a little PND after DD2 arrived but tried to keep that hidden from my eldest. You can't really hide it, unfortunately. Try to find a way to make everything a bit lower pressure on all of you. Are you getting help for the PND?

Can you find something to praise her for every half hour? Try just being much more positive about you and her today, it can't hurt and might help. Just say generic things like 'ooh look at us, we're having a nice day together' even if you don't feel it!

I just don't know how to deal with the behaviour in the moment - she needs consequences for these choices but I can't seem to get it at the right level. And shouting just makes things worse. I really wanted some time just me and her this half term but unfortunately due to baby illness that's not happened

It is harsh but that's where I'm mentally at. Our house is pure chaos - we're really struggling to keep on top of it. Husband works long hours and we're knackered. I'm not denying countless other families are too, I think for me personally my mental health ties in a lot to my surroundings. I also had a tricky childhood (whoooole other thread) and just want my children to have a better experience that I did. I think I'm beating myself up a lot at the moment but I'm just feeling very very overwhelmed and looking for advice on how others manage behaviour. Sticker charts? We do praise - we praise loads! But it doesn't seem to be working in those big moments

Shouting means you have lost control of your own behaviour. I echo another poster by asking have you sought help for your PND?

If her behaviour just tantrums/meltdowns? They’re not a choice, she isn’t choosing poor behaviour. This happens when children are tired, hungry, unwell, lack control, lack the skills to deal with how they feel because they’re just 4. You need to look at what’a causing them, tiredness, hunger, rushing her and when she is in this place she needs understanding. She isn’t giving you a hard time, she is having a hard time.

You say you are struggling with consequences at the moment and DD sounds like she is struggling with lack of boundaries. I would suggest you and DH carve out half an hour and prioritize getting on the same page with each other. Write out a list of stuff you want to give consequences for and what those consequences will be. Agree on how you approach unacceptable behaviour and challenging behaviour…three strikes and youre out, naughty step, loosing privileges etc etc. what ever it is that works for you. Then decide on a positive reinforcement approach. Star charts with prizes can be very motivating.

I personally had a lot of sucess with stars in a big jar for each person in the family (the baby can have a jar, you just have to be a bit creative about what you reward..smiling at DD1 can get a reward, throwing food on the floor can get a penalty). For every positive thing DD does, add a star, for every negative thing remove a star. You and DH the same. Write a list of what behaviours add and remove stars for each person and stick it on the fridge. Then take DD through it. You and DH HAVE to be completely consistent about how you handle removing stars, dont get emotionally involved, just calmly tell DD you screamed at me, so you will loose a star (when you are out add it to a list on your phone and then remove the star when you get home). Then dont say any more about the star or the behaviour. If she gets to the end of the day with x number of stars, she gets to have an extra bedtime story (or something that is special time with you or DH rather than a physical prize). And each morning the jar resets with 5 stars (or whatever amount) so she doesnt have it hanging over her. You and DH can do a weekly thing if you want.

Focus your attention on praising or rebuking her behaviour and not her person. I dont like what you are choosing to do, I love it when you choose to xyz. Not you are naughty/good. Its a subtle difference, but important.

How much sleep is she getting?

At 4 acting out and tantrums are probably a sign that she is overwhelmed - especially if there was a new baby recently (and this new baby in all likelihood is now just starting to walk,talk etc which is effectively taking attention from her which at this age is both confusing and threatening). So “consequences for poor behaviour” at that age do not work - in all likelihood will just entrench things.
just go low stimulus and low expectation and try to help her self esteem with involving her with lots of super important tasks that she can do to help her feel super important compared to her small sister.
It will pass as she gets older but at 4 she does not have the capacity to deliberately plan to misbehave - she is in all likelihood looking for attention and by focussing on consequences there is the danger that you reinforce the unwanted behaviour. I am not arguing against consequences but consequences only work if they are logical and natural consequences (like child having ice lolly and being asked to sit down, child running about and ice lolly falling down), not ones motivated by parents feeling embarrassed or fearing to be judged.
A three year age difference is tough. Older child is old enough to remember that at some time she was the only one and hold on to that - even if she loves the baby at the same time.
Dont stress too much.

You don’t have to impose punishment and I wouldn’t. It’s completely understandable that your child is very stressed,m by all the changes and she will be mirroring what’s going on with your stress and MH. Punishment is only going to make that worse for both of you. Do what you need to do, pick her up and remove her from the play date for example but you don’t have to impose “consequences “.
This is a tricky time of life, it will get easier very soon I’m sure. You do start to realise that you can’t actually control things like meltdowns, and sometimes that might mean worrying other people judging you hence your feeling mortified, that is about your anxiety and is for you to make peace with. I think starting with compassion for yourself, and then for her would be really helpful.

Help has been sought and I'm feeling much better in regards to PND. Added to give context to the last year we've had but I wouldn't say it's impacting me currently. We do countdowns before leaving, she has plenty of warning, she'd eaten and drank plenty too, she sleeps well I think she's just overwhelmed and I dare say feeling a little out of control as her sister has been poorly and also she's had a mad couple of months with school. I've no doubts she's pushing more boundaries at home and out of home as a way of seeking more control. What I find hard is dealing with those behaviours in the moment. We praise her good behaviour lots and lots, I think I want a more consistent approach though to this - as others have mentioned down thread, a sticker chart or star jar sounds like a good idea

Thank you for such a kind comment, it is massively appreciated

How is she at school?

Op my son sometimes had this kind of reaction at the end of play dates/having to leave the park etc. He needed loads of warnings, and making sure he’d listened - so ‘we are leaving in 10 mins ok’, then 5 mins, then 2 mins etc.

I suspect this is a combo of her being shattered after reception, the new baby being clingy and the change in weather and clocks.

This too shall pass. Hang in there, you sound like a great mum

An angel!!

Thank you ❤️. Yes we have to do lots of countdowns too, and do try and do this but it doesn't seem to matter anymore. I'm hoping it is a combo of all three - I can't help but blame ourselves at the moment. I'm very much ready for it to end!! Thank you for your kind comment

What was her early childhood like? Was she in nursery?

Im not sure about the sticker chart /jar etc. it will just be another change and unnecessary added pressure for her.

A lot of the time the behaviour at home is worse than school because thats where children feel able to let lose and feel safe to ‘break down/ act out’. Please dont feel bad or mortified. It is just your child showing you that shes having an overwhelming time.

I really think she would benefit with some one on one time with you. Even if it is a little activity at home just you and her or after school and to make it a regular thing so its her time. A little coffee date or anything.

Shes been an only child for a while and is old enough now to notice a big change. It is not surprising and very common. Please dont feel bad about it.

Look up Dr Siggie Cohen online/on Instagram @TeainanIV - we went through a similar phase and it really helped us to re-frame it. She is a child development specialist with a PhD and has clear, tangible strategies you can actually use with young children. We looked up and read so, so much and I found her advice worked for us the best.

OP your little girl sounds like a completely normal little girl. Tantrumming after playdates is normal, struggling with first term of reception (and in my case year 1) is completely normal. Struggling with finding her place in the family when she has a little sibling and lashing out. And the house being in chaos with 2 working adults and 2 small children. All ABSOLUTLEY NORMAL.

You are doing absolutley fine. You are in the trenches and this bit is fucking hard. I am so sorry you are suffering with PND, please be kind to yourself, lots of praise for your eldest when she is doing well. Honestly most parents have been there especially meltdowns at the end of playdates. Sending strength, it does get easier, I think my DC turned it around in reception after Xmas, but we're struggling again in year 1 with behaviour, even though we're doing our best and he is very much loved and set boundaries. So sending massive solidarity. Xx

Do you tell her what's going to be happening and what your expectations are for her?

E.g for days out: we are getting out soon in a busy car park. I need you to stand next to the car and then hold my hand. Once we reach the venue you can let go and run around.

I will give you a one hour/ half hour count down when we need to leave the play date. You will then be expected to put on your coat and shoes and get in the car nicely. If we do that well you can watch Peppa pig when we get home.

Some kids get easily overwhelmed by things happening that weren't as they expected so being very clear and using simple language can help.

I also used a form of time out with mine. Sometimes they just needed to be taken to the hallway or somewhere quiet with the I have brought you hear because you shouting is giving everyone else sore ears. When you are ready to stop we will go back in (and ignore the rest until calm).

There's a state at which intervention is pointless as they can't listen so get in before if you can. And if it goes o er that sometimes they do just need to be put into the car. Tell them why but don't engage until calmer.

I probably would have written this with my first. By my third I realised that all kids go through these pretty dreadful stages (often at slightly different ages) where you almost don’t recognise your own child from their dreadful behaviour. Generally it fades out as they learn to cope. In the last year her world has totally turned upside down. A new sibling is a huge deal if you’re used to having both Mum and Dad to yourself. Starting school is a huge deal and the honeymoon period is definitely over once you hit the first half term. I can’t count the number of play dates that either I or another bedraggled mum have been chasing our recalcitrant children out from hiding under beds, refusing to leave. Go easy on yourself, you’re in a really tough phase. You’re not doing anything wrong and sound really caring and lovely.

Can you try a bot of love bombing her too as she possibly feels a bit neglected with a new sibling? See it as big girl time and do something baby can't be involved in.

She's been in nursery since she was one. She had a brilliant early childhood - lots of baby groups and classes over mat leave and really thrived in nursery.