4yo’s extreme behaviour – desperate for advice

[MilesJonesy]

My 4-year-old (well he turns 4 on Wednesday) son has always been a bit fiery, but since starting the new nursery term things have spiralled out of control. Last year he would occasionally hit out, but nothing like what’s happening now.

In the past few weeks he has:

• Flipped tables and turned the whole nursery room upside down (two or three times).
• Spat on toys and thrown food.
• Tried to hit staff, and last week scratched a teacher’s arm so hard it drew blood.
• Refused to let others share resources (like all the Play-Doh pots) and gone into full meltdown if asked to.

At home, it’s not much better. He’s wrecked his room in anger, smashed a glass candle jar, peed himself in protest during time out, poured water over his brother in the car, and regularly hits/spits at his sibling. He sometimes escalates so much I can’t leave him unattended even for a few minutes while cooking.

We’ve tried every sanction I can think of: time outs, no screen time, early bed, confiscating toys, putting him in his room, even withdrawing attention/not playing with him. He doesn’t seem to care about any of it – he just shrugs it off and carries on. Sometimes sanctions even backfire (e.g. peeing himself in protest or trashing things).

What makes it harder is that he can also be completely fine – affectionate, able to sit through long stories, build Lego, go for walks, or cuddle up quietly. And just this week he had two completely fine days at nursery where nothing bad happened at all. So I’m baffled as to how he can switch from that to such extreme behaviour.

We constantly reinforce “soft hands” and “kind words” at home. Nursery have been supportive – they’ve made referrals for speech and language and for a possible neurodevelopmental assessment, but the waiting list is about two years (Scotland). I’ve started looking into private options because I feel I can’t cope waiting that long.

Emotionally, I feel like I’m at breaking point. I’m stressed, anxious, and sometimes feel totally alone dealing with this. I have another child too, and it’s horrible watching him bear the brunt of the hitting/spitting.

Has anyone else had a child whose behaviour escalated like this around age 4? Does this sound like ADHD/autism/PDA, or something else? And what practical strategies actually made a difference in keeping everyone safe day-to-day?

Any advice or reassurance would mean the world right now. My eldest is 6.5 and has no problems whatsover at home or school except the odd bit of being silly or cheeky.

What is it that triggers these behaviours OP? Is there anything you or nursery have noticed?

There are a few triggers, being told no, being asked to share things, consequences being enacted (like you have to stop this now because it's not safe). Sometimes attention. But we had a meeting recently with the school and health visitor and all agreed that sometimes the triggers are unclear. He does have slightly delayed speech for his age (also waiting for speech and language referral).

Clearly 'gentle hands' isn't working then??

Sounds like he needs an earlier bed time and some actual consequences and expectations of behaviour.

Sounds like you need to actually read the post.

He is telling you very clearly through his behaviour that he is not coping with nursery. Are there any other options - different nursery, childminder, nanny share? Is the nursery essential so you can work?

As you don't have EHCP in Scotland it's not quite as crucial to stick with the setting for evidence so I think I'd try a change of setting if that's a possibility.

It could be particular individuals who are triggering him (or helping him) - kids or adults.

He may be autistic yes but while it's definitely worth getting an assessment, it'd be best not to rely on that making a huge difference.

Just to clarify, we do use consistent consequences — time outs, removing treats/screens, early bedtimes, toys being put away etc. I’m really looking for advice from anyone who’s been through similar, especially with the more extreme behaviours (wrecking a room, lashing out at staff, peeing in protest). How did you manage at home/in nursery, and what strategies helped your child regulate?

I don’t understand how a 3 year old is being allowed to trash rooms? He’s presumably small enough to restrain and firmly remove after upturning one table.

It can be a tricky age as they have big feelings they often can’t communicate, but it does sound like he needs firmer immediate intervention.

Thanks for the advice. It’s a small, quiet nursery with really sensitive staff, so I don’t think the environment itself is the problem. He was mostly fine there last year, and it’s only this term that things have become so extreme. Honestly I would be terrified to send him to a childminder. Some of the things he does in my house when it's only myself and his brother around are so naughty, challenging and unsafe.

You lost me at ‘soft hands’ and ‘kind words’ I’m afraid. I think you know why your child acts like this.

Milesjonesy

Whatever the op is doing clearly isn't working for her child.

Guaranteed he wouldn't act like that with a childminder. Absolutely certain.

Immediately after he acts like that what do you do?? Do you get down to his level, hold his shoulders firmly and say in a strong voice 'you DO NOT do that!'. And mean it??

Reinforcing fluffy words like soft hands isn't going to help a violent child.
he is small enough to be picked up and taken out of a room. Why hasn't this been done when he's trashed his room?

“Soft hands” and “Kind words” are why there are so many parents having problems with children’s behaviour.

Tough parenting is needed. A 3 year old shouldn’t be getting the option to ‘trash a room’.

I think you need stronger consequences. Attacking people, spitting at them, this isn't acceptable, SEN or not. What DOES he care about? There must be something. Find it and leverage it. Tablet or game? Activity he loves to do? Friend he likes seeing? No child cares about nothing.

Let him pee himself in protest on the naughty step or time out chair or wherever he is, he'll be the one sitting in it. Don't react. Take the power away. Don't do anything. Don't clean him up or change him, just hand him a pack of baby wipes and a change of clothes and walk away. 4 is more than old enough to be able to change his own trousers. He'll soon be uncomfortable and cold and decide that it's bothering him more than you.

I'd have tanned his backside long ago, to be perfectly honest, around the first time he dared to spit at me but if you don't want to resort to physical chastisement, you need to find something that will make him pause and think about whether misbehaving is really worth it.

I see my kids cogs turning when I give them the warning look. 'Is the momentary thrill of backchatting my mum actually worth losing my phone/football practice/weekend plans over? No, not really.'

Always follow through on anything you threaten. Even the drastic ones. I once told my oldest that if he couldn't stop screaming swear words at his Xbox, I'd bin the game and if he carried on I'd bin the console. He didn't believe me until I did it. He still has the Xbox but not fifa or whatever it was. Do I consider £40 in the bin a reasonable price for my child's good behaviour? Absolutely.

I wish someone had thought of that for kids trashing the room at my dcs' school (!)

Of course bad behaviour exists but this is clearly a child with additional needs.

Have you tried Dr Becky's 'I won't let you'?

He sounds ND.

I’d use rewards, pick your battles and pick him up and remove him when he’s violent.

Consequences you say have no effect. This is normal for ND. But he must be very unhappy to be constantly in trouble.

I’d honestly dial back on sanctions if they don’t work and try and focus on what he does well.

With some children you can be as gentle or stern as you like but the behaviour will continue. I don’t think people are right here blaming OP.

Well he acts like that in nursery so I think it's not the parenting. Ignore posts saying this, OP. I work in a preschool and it's very easy to see the children who come back after breaks with no boundaries but then behave wonderfully with us after a couple of days. As opposed to kids who have genuine needs who don't cope at home or at school (sometimes worse in nursery due to the environment). Neurotypucal kids tend to behave better in a school environment as they understand heroes and expectations, and don't find it too stressful.

OP, one bit of advice is to not escalate your emotions and not to hand out consequences or threats during the behaviour. It usually escalates out of control behaviour (well it did with 2 of mine). You need to focus on getting him calm and then bring in consequences when everything is OK. With my son, sometimes he was ill, tired, hungry or thirsty and didn't realise it as his sensitive awareness was so bad. Also, in your DS's case, he's gone back and it is all very different, different kids, he's an older child there where they probably higher expectations of them etc

Personally I would totally distract from the situation, get a drink or do something else. If there is a time sensitive deadline like getting out of the house it's harder. I would also read up on PDA and strategies for dealing with autism a even if your son isn't, it could help you and the nursery manage.

Sorry, lots of mistakes, but I hope you get the gist. I would also hope the nursery have some ideas on how to deal with things. How do they deal with it? If they are out of ideas, then it's probably not the best place for him as these behaviours will become entrenched and harder to deal with in the long term.

He behaves like this at a 'small nursery' - why would it be any different at a child minder?

When he is calm has he got the language skills to talk about what has happened? He’s not too young to be taught alternative strategies to help himself to regulate when he starts getting upset. You could use a simple traffic light colour chart,
eg LittleMiles, green means calm, happy etc What does it look like when you’re happy? (Give example if needed) Orange means getting a bit annoyed, when does this happen (eg when he’s told no) Red means you’re angry - what does that look like?
create a grid as follows…
Column one: colours with the above info
(eg green - I am happy playing with my toys, I am smiling etc)
column two: what I can try to do (eg orange, fidget tool)
column three: what an adult can do to help me (an adult might need to hold me to keep me safe)
The above is loosely based on Five Point Scale - have a google for more info.

Also: CAMHS referral if not already done, ask nursery to contact area SENCO if they have one for advice.

Consequences like time out aren’t working either are they?
Its not like the OP is ketotifen g him do whatever he wants!

Agree with PP. It sounds like your approach to him is far too gentle. Both you and nursery. He needs to be taught firm boundaries and consequences.

I've not been in your shoes, but I am a teacher. One of the reasons why these strategies are not working is because when he is in a rage, it is not possible to reason with him. Ideally, you need to nip the behaviour in the bud before he starts to get wound up and then reason with him. It does sound like the behaviour has already escalated before it is dealt with, both at home and at nursery. Ask the nursery to have someone watching him all the time and distracting him at any time there may be a trigger so this type of behaviour does not become the norm. At home practise sharing and taking turns when he is calm with rewards. Sanctions are not working for him because he is not thinking logically when they are applied (he is already in a rage state), so switch to rewards for good behaviour instead. Start a reward chart praising every 10 or 15 minutes that he is calm and playing nicely. Do the same for your other child (who will always get the reward), so rather than taking ipad time away, they earn chunks of ipad time through calm behaviour. I wish you all the best with helping him get out of this pickle.