4yo’s extreme behaviour – desperate for advice

[MilesJonesy]

My 4-year-old (well he turns 4 on Wednesday) son has always been a bit fiery, but since starting the new nursery term things have spiralled out of control. Last year he would occasionally hit out, but nothing like what’s happening now.

In the past few weeks he has:

• Flipped tables and turned the whole nursery room upside down (two or three times).
• Spat on toys and thrown food.
• Tried to hit staff, and last week scratched a teacher’s arm so hard it drew blood.
• Refused to let others share resources (like all the Play-Doh pots) and gone into full meltdown if asked to.

At home, it’s not much better. He’s wrecked his room in anger, smashed a glass candle jar, peed himself in protest during time out, poured water over his brother in the car, and regularly hits/spits at his sibling. He sometimes escalates so much I can’t leave him unattended even for a few minutes while cooking.

We’ve tried every sanction I can think of: time outs, no screen time, early bed, confiscating toys, putting him in his room, even withdrawing attention/not playing with him. He doesn’t seem to care about any of it – he just shrugs it off and carries on. Sometimes sanctions even backfire (e.g. peeing himself in protest or trashing things).

What makes it harder is that he can also be completely fine – affectionate, able to sit through long stories, build Lego, go for walks, or cuddle up quietly. And just this week he had two completely fine days at nursery where nothing bad happened at all. So I’m baffled as to how he can switch from that to such extreme behaviour.

We constantly reinforce “soft hands” and “kind words” at home. Nursery have been supportive – they’ve made referrals for speech and language and for a possible neurodevelopmental assessment, but the waiting list is about two years (Scotland). I’ve started looking into private options because I feel I can’t cope waiting that long.

Emotionally, I feel like I’m at breaking point. I’m stressed, anxious, and sometimes feel totally alone dealing with this. I have another child too, and it’s horrible watching him bear the brunt of the hitting/spitting.

Has anyone else had a child whose behaviour escalated like this around age 4? Does this sound like ADHD/autism/PDA, or something else? And what practical strategies actually made a difference in keeping everyone safe day-to-day?

Any advice or reassurance would mean the world right now. My eldest is 6.5 and has no problems whatsover at home or school except the odd bit of being silly or cheeky.

Some of the advice on here is appalling. OP, I'd advice you to move this to the SEN board where you might get some acrual help.

My son was just like yours when he was 4. He got kicked out of a nursery in fact. Now he is in Year 2 in a lovely maonstream independent school and absolutely thriving (with an EHCP), top of the class and loving school. Flipping tables is a long distant memory. He is autistic and has ADHD.

You are describing a highly dysregulated, overwhelmed child whose needs are not being met. The naughty step is not going to fix this.

I'd get an OT and SALT assessment, which should be able to provide practical advice. I'd also apply for an EHCP.

My son was suffering from extreme anxiety and sensory issues, and it manifested in him flipping out.

Be prepared for gaslighting from professionals by the way. My son's GP was appalling and didn't believe he was autistic.

OP, please leave this thread and post on an SEN board for actual advice. Most posters on here do not have a fucking clue and the ones talking about physical punishment for a child who clearly has behavioural issues unrelated to discipline shouldn’t be anywhere near children.

This. A lot of the advice you have been given on this thread is very harmful. You need to be talking to people who know what they're talking about.

Get him assessment pronto. We used a place in Stirling twice. Well worth to get diagnosed quite quickly.

This. Although the place in Stirling was under 1800.

I agree with ballon hearts.

There is no way on this earth I would allow any child to spit on me, let alone my own.

It's a diservice to the child, and the man he needs to become.

Just an idea we use on my son, he doesn't have extreme behavior though, is a marble reward jar. Jar with a line across the middle. When they do something good ypu give them a marble to put in the jar, take one away and they loose one, or multiple. Once they get to the half way point they get a good treat, like a meal out or whatever they care about. For filling the entire jar it's a really good present.
We just have to threaten to take away marbles and he falls in line.

We used pasta jars. One for good behaviour and one for bad.

Then dd in a meltdown tipped the bad one all over the floor. So we just used good, and importantly didn’t take any out for bad behaviour. Seeing it fill up seemed to improve her more and more. So don’t remove any of them for bad behaviour. Just focus on good.

Reward charts, stickers, marbles etc tend to be completely useless for ND kids with disregulated behaviour from anxiety or sensory issues. They just increase the anxiety.

One of the really powerful things Ross Greene says in his book (The Explosive Child one) is "children do well if they can." If they don't know why they're feeling/doing the things they are, a marble's hardly going to help (no offence to people with less reactive children, but I don't want a jar of marbles chucked at me either!)

The book that really helped me was Jeffrey Bernstein's "10 Days to a Less Defiant Child". It's really supportive of parents and has a lot of practical tips. I found The Explosive Child didn't really tell you what to do (maybe his website does though - Lives in the Balance).

No good recommending EHCP to a poster in Scotland. They don't have it.

I'm not sure what you do do re school support in Scotland. Pick the school carefully if you can?

Rewards worked really well for my ND Dd.

It was the only thing that really worked tbh. And she would get dysregulated, anxious and have sensory issues.

I'm generally quite agnostic about reward systems full stop. I get enough of that at school. DD attends my school. She loved her green behaviour wheel in year 7. But OMG the meltdown when it was besmirched with a red point. In year 8 she's quite cynical about it all!

I meant to add, OP, what support do you have for yourself? I was really low a lot of the time between ages 3-8. Friends would quite often back away when I disclosed how bad it was! The work counsellor also basically told me to pull myself together, which wasn't helpful. I had to distance myself from my mum and sister as they just didn't get it.

I got some help by participating in a university research project (they posted on a parent group forum for PDA kids I belong to). It was great to be allowed to just talk and they got me to keep a diary. I felt like I was maybe helping others too. The NVR therapist was a really good listener and DD got some play therapy too which helped. More recently, via the safeguarding lead at school I found a charity, Capa First Response, that works with families like ours. DH and I also found a family therapist we see online now and again (found her through school as well).

Schools can be really helpful if they have experienced safeguarding people and a good attitude - they know what's out there.

I am afraid that every single £ of all this was paid for by us out of our own pockets though (except the university research). Hopefully there are better services in Scotland.

That's the annoying thing about children. They're all different!

DD is a proper little capitalist and will often do things for actual money.

She's had a Go Henry card for years now and much negotiation takes place.

If she manages to stick with education I suspect she'll be a lawyer and if not, some kind of motivational coach or salesperson. She's incredibly convincing and good at parting people from their money!

As a teacher of 40 years l have seen this.
As suggested by a teacher already try and get nursery to try and expect the behaviour and intervene before it starts. Once it starts it's too late as he has entered that realm of not being able to stop.
No sudden change of plan so a chart showing exactly what's happening each time of the day. Lots of pictures, examples online for this.
Stop with the punishments in spite of what people are saying. Would you make a child in a wheelchair get up and walk and punish them if they didn't..this is a child with special needs. No way in hell would ye all be so great if it was your child.
Read up on sensory issues..there is something really bothering him. Have a quiet place at home eg: a pop up tent with a few sensory toys inside and encourage him to go in there during the day to wind down . Get a heavy blanket that he can have over him on the couch..a weighted blanket which can be bought online. An Occupational therapist would be helpful here with suggestions. When he starts to scream, lash out etc keep really calm..not easy and don't mention a punishment..treat it like he is having a fit..you wouldn't punish him for that but ensure he was in a safe place where he couldn't harm himself.
I am wondering if nursery has introduced phonics or some reading..l am in lreland so we use different terms so not sure when this starts with you. . I have seen a child who was later found to be dyslexic go completely out of control as they had no idea what was happening with words etc and they were actually traumatised each time. Especially as you said he was fine last year so something has changed. That child also had other needs but reading became a huge trigger in the school setting.
None of this is your fault or your parenting. After all you have another child who sounds fine. You have a child with special needs and need professional help to manage.

OP working with families with young children with these types of behaviours is what I do for a living. Regular parenting strategies don't work, but people love to judge. You are describing a child who becomes very dysregulated very quickly. Neurologically their brains are perceiving extreme danger to their survival, thus the big behaviour and lack of rationality. Punishment or immediate consequences just make it worse - it increases the danger. These children need co-regulation from a regulated adult. They need consistent support to help ther brains 'rewire' for safety. I really recommend the book Raising Kids With Big Baffleing Behaviours by Robyn Gobbel. It's excellent and really helps parents understand what is happening in their children's brains and how to support. It's also a great read for professionals.

How are school reacting to his begaviour and are there any adaptations in place?

I agree unclear language like 'kind hands' is unlikely to work as too wooly. I'd look at predictable routines, clear, brief , simple communication/ instructions, sensory triggers. Also - his language understanding and emotional maturity is likely to be much younger than his biological age, so expectations may need to be adjested to match a 1-2 year younger child.

Except, as many people have pointed out, it DOES NOT WORK with children on the spectrum.
Being harsh, using ‘the right tone’ etc… does not work.

Id even argue it doesn’t work that well with NT children either tbh.

Agree. Spitting on people is not a case of 'he's on the spectrum, he can't help it.' It's straight up disrespect, atrocious manners and lack of boundaries. My kids don't behave because they're beaten. 😂 They behave because they know what is acceptable and what isn't. 2 of them are autistic. I know what a meltdown looks like and they would never be punished for that.

Spitting is not a meltdown. There is no way any of them would get away with that for a second. I'm not raising a violent, abusive man who thinks he can just attack people, drawing blood, spit on them and trash rooms without retribution because autism. Fuck that.

Would you rather they learn now from a smack on the backside from their mum or in 10 years when they start something they can't finish and someone sticks knife in them? Just because you're willing to let your kid knock the stuffing out of you in the name of gentle parenting, doesn't mean everyone else they meet will.

🙄there’s different levels and aspects of ND.

Its not about parenting. You were lucky with yours.

Firm hands and stern words would probably work better.

Have a look at, at peace parenting. She does videos about raising a pda child. Also look at NVR courses. Refer yourself to early help. Sounds like PDA to me. Try to maintain a strong close bond. Try to accommodate their needs as best you can to avoid meltdowns. Think of things in a cost benefit terms. What is the cost of if I ask them to share their toy vs the benefit. The cost might be a violent meltdown which isnt worth the benefit of them sharing their toy. Obviously there are times when it is worth the cost. My pda daughter wanted to climb up on our scaffolding at home. Obviously not safe so no amount of meltdowns would be worth it. Their primal brain is in overdrive as they need a strong close bond with you to feel safe so their brain doesn’t feel the need to go into fight/flight/fright/fawn reflex. look at the explosive child and declarative language handbook along with low demand parenting in general.

expect you will need to have asd assessment at some point.

good luck.

How is this helping OP?

@Balloonhearts if you've never had a child spit at you, I'm not sure you should give advice tbh.

I also think you should look at PDA strategies (Pathological Demand Avoidance).

A real shame when a parent comes on here, desperate, listing all the behavioral strategies they've tried just to be told they're a shit parent and not disciplining their child. Clearly the opposite is true here.
Or when someone helpfully points out that what they've been doing isn't working. No shit, sherlock that's why they're asking 🤦🏻‍♀️😆

Oh wow the OP just needs to not allow him to spit! Problem solved. I hope she sees this so it solves everything for her 🥰

This!
A lot of MN posters just hold the view that any kind of behaviour issues is always just rubbish, lazy parenting so see the thread title and can’t wait to tell OP how awful they are at raising their child.

Even though the thread is ‘I’m a qualified teacher with years of experience, know all the techniques, have an older child who is perfectly well-behaved, am a firm believer in clear/rules/boundaries/consequences, have exhausted all kinds of methods and types of discipline, including being extremely firm but the behaviour is still happening‘

It doesn’t fit their worldview so they just ignore it and proceed to tell OP she’s a bad parent 🙄