4yo’s extreme behaviour – desperate for advice

[MilesJonesy]

My 4-year-old (well he turns 4 on Wednesday) son has always been a bit fiery, but since starting the new nursery term things have spiralled out of control. Last year he would occasionally hit out, but nothing like what’s happening now.

In the past few weeks he has:

• Flipped tables and turned the whole nursery room upside down (two or three times).
• Spat on toys and thrown food.
• Tried to hit staff, and last week scratched a teacher’s arm so hard it drew blood.
• Refused to let others share resources (like all the Play-Doh pots) and gone into full meltdown if asked to.

At home, it’s not much better. He’s wrecked his room in anger, smashed a glass candle jar, peed himself in protest during time out, poured water over his brother in the car, and regularly hits/spits at his sibling. He sometimes escalates so much I can’t leave him unattended even for a few minutes while cooking.

We’ve tried every sanction I can think of: time outs, no screen time, early bed, confiscating toys, putting him in his room, even withdrawing attention/not playing with him. He doesn’t seem to care about any of it – he just shrugs it off and carries on. Sometimes sanctions even backfire (e.g. peeing himself in protest or trashing things).

What makes it harder is that he can also be completely fine – affectionate, able to sit through long stories, build Lego, go for walks, or cuddle up quietly. And just this week he had two completely fine days at nursery where nothing bad happened at all. So I’m baffled as to how he can switch from that to such extreme behaviour.

We constantly reinforce “soft hands” and “kind words” at home. Nursery have been supportive – they’ve made referrals for speech and language and for a possible neurodevelopmental assessment, but the waiting list is about two years (Scotland). I’ve started looking into private options because I feel I can’t cope waiting that long.

Emotionally, I feel like I’m at breaking point. I’m stressed, anxious, and sometimes feel totally alone dealing with this. I have another child too, and it’s horrible watching him bear the brunt of the hitting/spitting.

Has anyone else had a child whose behaviour escalated like this around age 4? Does this sound like ADHD/autism/PDA, or something else? And what practical strategies actually made a difference in keeping everyone safe day-to-day?

Any advice or reassurance would mean the world right now. My eldest is 6.5 and has no problems whatsover at home or school except the odd bit of being silly or cheeky.

This!
A lot of MN posters just hold the view that any kind of behaviour issues is always just rubbish, lazy parenting so see the thread title and can’t wait to tell OP how awful they are at raising their child.

Even though the thread is ‘I’m a qualified teacher with years of experience, know all the techniques, have an older child who is perfectly well-behaved, am a firm believer in clear/rules/boundaries/consequences, have exhausted all kinds of methods and types of discipline, including being extremely firm but the behaviour is still happening‘

It doesn’t fit their worldview so they just ignore it and proceed to tell OP she’s a bad parent 🙄

😂 Yes, the one who has raised 4 kids (2 of which have additional needs) not to behave like feral animals is definitely not to be listened to. The people whose 4 year olds spit and swear at them while trashing the house are clearly doing a much better job.

What level of additional needs, out of interest? How much understanding do your kids have, relevant to their age related expectations?

Because my hunch is that you are talking about very different levels of development, regulation and communication.

Sorry if this has been covered, but how is speech and communication? Because at almost 4, ‘me angry’ is a really toddler-like way of speaking. Most children of that age are well able to construct a litany of vocab and sentence structure and not be talking in the third person. So purely off that I’d be thinking about getting him assessed with a SALT. It’s going to be a major source of frustration for him if he doesn’t have the tools to adequately describe the way he’s feeling.

Do you think your post was helpful to OP though? It seemed to boil down to "you're not trying hard enough.'

For what it's worth, I wouldn't give advice on parenting a large family or parenting autistic siblings, because I don't have experience with either of those things.

My DC is pretty well behaved now. She wasn't at the age OP is asking about. She had many challenges, wasn't yet diagnosed and her needs weren't being met.

Oh the irony of saying that being harsh doesn’t work and then using capitals to shout at me 😂.

Sometimes that IS what it boils down to. Setting firm boundaries and sticking to them. Making expectations clear and imposing consequences, whatever they may be, that you follow through with. Kids are canny, if they think they can get away with behaving horrendously then they will!

For the poster that asked, my second Haa mostly sensory difficulties, more often than not it's distraction that sends him into meltdown. 2 people talking at once, tv and radio both on at once, having to multi task in any way whatsoever can send him into complete sobbing, screaming meltdown. He did used to lash out during these.

We never punished it in the moment but he did have consequences later such as fixing or replacing something he broke, apologising to the person he hit, cleaning up any mess he made. It was made clear that it wasn't acceptable and he does manage to check himself in the moment now, most of the time. You see him start like he's going to try and throw something, then stop himself. He worked bloody hard to check that impulse and it took months of trying, making amends, trying again but it can be done.

If he was disrespectful enough to spit at me, I'd give him the same reaction as any of the others, smacked bum and immediate consequence.

My youngest is autistic, we're almost certain but she is young and it's not clear yet how much it will affect her day to day. She doesn't talk much yet and gets very frustrated but we're working on her using sign to communicate rather than howling in tears because she can't talk. There is no point talking about consequences for her, she is too young and wouldn't understand. I'd just physically remove her and sternly tell her No. She understands No.

@Balloonhearts

Thank you - it was me that asked.

My son is nearly 9, the size of a 13 year old and cognitively 2 years old.

He has very limited communication and still doesn’t have the understanding to be able to use consequences, beyond very short term removal of things. He’s maybe where your daughter is, except he’s 5ft tall.

There is nothing, genuinely, that could be used as a consequence to manage his behaviour. He doesn’t have the understanding for anything beyond the word “No.” There’s no opportunity to make anything clear to him, because it would remain unclear. He doesn’t get it.

We also can’t just remove him from a situation. He’s huge.

Some of us have children who still bite etc, because it is very difficult to teach them otherwise due to a real lack of understanding.

I don’t dispute your children face challenges, but there honestly is a difference.

All 4 of my DC are autistic but only DS3 has challenging behaviour. Mine are 20, 18, 12 and 10. I don't smack my kids, but there's no reason to think it would have any affect on DS3. He did have to be restrained a lot when he was younger for his and other DC's safety. It was horrendous tbh as his dysregulated behaviour would increase. I'm as sure as I can be that smacking him would only have him upping the ante.There's no loss of item or activity that would bother him in the slightest (something we did try).

He has learnt to self-regulate which has come over time. Perhaps I'm just a rubbish parent, but there was no quick fix to his challenging behaviours.

I'm a teacher, and I've worked in some really tough schools. I've dealt with behaviour that is off the wall. I know all the standard strategies. But I find that the tougher I get with my youngest the worse he gets, the more destructive, damaging and frightening. Consistent, immediate consequences mean nothing to him.

As you say "tough schools" I would guess secondary schools? Teenagers with challenging behaviour are a very different kettle of fish to young children. Commonly with challenging behaviour at any age, there is an element of developmental or communication delay, which in an almost-4yo, might mean some of his skills (communication, social skills, ability to handle change of plan, emotional regulation etc etc) are closer to the level of a 2.5yo. It's very unlikely that a teenager with any element of their development being closer to a toddler would be in a mainstream school - they would be in a special school. Even an 11yo with the emotional development of a 7yo would be starting at a very different point to a struggling 3/4yo, which is probably why they tend to be more receptive to those techniques of behaviour management. Being tough only really works if they CAN do the thing you want them to do, and they are choosing not to because it's more rewarding to them to do the disruptive thing.

Similar to how, if you can't speak French, it doesn't matter how "tough" someone is on you, it's not going to give you the ability to speak French - if he doesn't currently have the skills to behave in the expected way/handle the adult expectations, no amount of consequences are going to change that. It's going to take a combo of support/accommodations (in the language analogy, translators, simplified French, diagrams, or someone speaking English to you) and skill building (ie learning French - which takes a lot of time, effort, practice, and will involve a lot of errors at first).

Obviously it's not as simple as saying ah right he can't speak French - it's probably a more complicated combination of e.g. social skills, communication, emotional regulation, impulse control etc. - which is why it helps to get input from a professional e.g. SALT/OT, because they can tell you where he needs more support/input, and often how to develop those skills as well.

Yes to hearing and eye tests as well, that makes sense as something easy to rule out and likely to be accessible without such a long wait. You could ask the GP if they would recommend any other tests as well e.g. allergies, vitamin levels - but they might not in the absence of other symptoms.

You can check some stats on Scotland CAMHS waiting lists here: https://publichealthscotland.scot/publications/child-and-adolescent-mental-health-services-camhs-waiting-times/child-and-adolescent-mental-health-services-camhs-waiting-times-quarter-ending-june-2025/

An assessment for things like ADHD, ASD, etc is helpful but probably won't give you much practical you can really do in the short term, so IMO it makes sense to stay on the NHS waiting list for these, and prioritise services which actually offer practical follow up if you're going to pay for anything privately. Obviously there is medication for ADHD, but it's not usually recommended in children this age anyway. If there is a way to go directly to any other services such as speech/OT, then it sort of makes more sense to do that, and only look into the private assessment route if it turns out access to some kind of therapy is totally blocked off unless you have a qualifying diagnosis.

We just need to find ways to deal with the switch, where he just seems to flip to being out of control.

As I recommended before, I would highly recommend Mona Delahooke for understanding this shift, and the book Big Baffling Behaviours (by Robyn Gobbel). Stuart Shanker's Self-Reg is also helpful, but I think as a supplement to other things. Gobbel's book is good because she lays out about three or four different "levels" of this dysregulated state and the signs that she lists as being indicative of having moved from one to the other were very helpful for me as my DS2 (age 7) displays several of them. However this is very much aimed at parents rather than teachers. Conscious Discipline has similar aspects for teachers - their videos are good and worth pushing past the cheesy/dated feel.

It may be worth the preschool asking whether there are any resources they can access through Local Authority funding or national government funding in the areas of either behaviour support, emotional regulation, or social/emotional learning (SEL) support because there are lots of general programs aimed at settings to use to help children in their care. I am abroad, but my child's Kindergarten recently purchased one of these programs to help some of the children in their group and they went through it with all the children, including my just-turned 4yo, who doesn't particularly struggle in this area - it was still helpful for him. They are usually designed to be fun and appealing to this age group and include things like songs and stories and characters to explain the concepts. If they already have access to something, it can help as you can use the same language at home.

For example this link is for practitioners and it is valid in Scotland as well as England and Wales.

https://birthto5matters.org.uk/self-regulation/

You could also try keeping a sort of diary over a few days, and get preschool to do this as well (or ask if you can go in and observe him, if you can do this without getting too closely involved) - if you can write down things like body language signs that he seems to be getting into a more wound-up state, as well as what he is doing/what's happening around him when he's more or less stressed, you might see patterns here. You might also see patterns in what kinds of experiences for him tend to trigger the outbursts, or if there is a pattern e.g. in the time of day it tends to happen (which might suggest hunger or tiredness as triggers, or discomfort from needing the toilet) And notes on what sorts of activities seem to help him come back to a calmer place too. Even if they seem counterproductive or not ideal, I would just write it down for now because you're looking for patterns.

Common things IME which might be worth looking for are things like:

Sensory stuff
auditory - what can you hear, is it loud/quiet, are there lots of conflicting noises, how are people speaking, are there irritated/frustrated/stern tones vs loud and enthusiastic vs calm and soothing, quiet music vs loud, background noise like traffic or the hum of a fan etc. Does he say things are too loud, or put his hands on his ears at all or want to wear a hood/hat when it's not cold?
visual - is there a lot going on at once, are the colours bright and clashing vs calm and muted, is there lots of moving visual stimulus, are all lights bright, does he seek out dark/cosy spaces? Is the room big and open vs smaller and more contained.
smell/taste - are mealtimes a trigger, are there smells like food cooking or toilets or perfumes or strong-smelling cleaning fluid?
touch - does he struggle with clothing textures, is he bothered by getting his hands wet/dirty, does he avoid or seek out messy play, or seek out textures? does he want to have his shoes or coat off/on when inappropriate? Does it bother him when other people touch him? Is he always trying to lie on people or be "squashed" into small spaces? Does he chew things?
Movement/exercise (proprioception) - is it better or worse if he's had an active day vs a more sedentary one, what about movement like spinning/swinging, does he tend to seek this out or dislike it?
Discomfort (interoception) - does he go to the toilet when he needs to vs waiting until the last minute, does he recognise when he's hungry/thirsty/hot/cold or seems to run more hot/cold than other children?

Then you've got:
Emotions - is he getting derailed as a result of strong emotions? Is there a pattern around particular emotions? How do the adults around him (incl you) tend to deal with this?
Demands/control - does he seem to struggle when someone else asks something of him, are there any situations when this is OK? Does he tend to try to control others? Does he try to enforce rules with other kids or speak to adults as though he was the adult and they were the child, without recognising this is seen as "cheeky"/defiant?
Familiar vs new - does he struggle with unknowns/unexpected things/change of routine or plans, does he seek out predictable/familiar things when stressed out? Is routine comforting to him, e.g. does he play out "Nursery circle time" at home?
Social - how many people are in the room, does he do better in smaller groups or prefer to be alone? Is he misreading social interactions or being misunderstood a lot? Does he do better with adults/children/older/younger/boys/girls/animals?

Sorry that was hugely long - and I hope tone comes across OK, I am not meaning it in terms of "This is everything that's wrong" but "These are some things/a perspective which may help" - I am ND myself and sometimes get tone a bit wrong.

It sounds, OP, like you're doing really well and already have very good resources, instincts and experience in your back pocket and these will certainly help, alongside hopefully anything new you can find out with whatever comes next.

If we'd smacked DD she'd have hit us back hard.

And told school.

We got reported to Social Services once when she described a situation at home to a holiday club worker. She's got SEMH challenges. She's also smart.

It is definitely not solely or even sometimes at all, about boundaries.

Parents in this situation tend to be trying harder than "regular" parents, not less hard!

Your son clearly has some additional needs, whether they're ADH/ASD/PDA - He could be, especially if he seems fine sometimes and not at other times. Keep a diary to log his triggers. What happened for the whole day, not just the 5 minutes before that etc..

Look at At Peace Parents on Instagram, shes been very helpful for my family. My dc are PDA, but at that age they masked More outside the house. If he is PDA, socially accepted punishments which as time out DO NOT WORK.

What might work is low demand parenting, natural consequences ( ie, if you break that toy, you won't have that toy anymore) non declarative language and not punishing meltdowns because if your child is having a meltdown, their nervous system has gone into overdrive. Don't try and reason with them or punish them while in meltdown - sit with them, keep them safe, give them a hug if needed, but save conversations for after it's over. Obviously spitting isn't ok - I've lost my shit at my kids for spitting. But in a meltdown they don't have the capability to understand that.

Low demand parenting a PDA child is HARD. The people that just say "punish him more" are, luckily for them, absolutely clueless. But it has worked for us - so so many fewer meltdowns and they're over much faster.

I cannot believe some of the responses here.

He sounds like a child with SEND and a mum who is doing her best in exhausting and worrying circumstances.

When his speech improves that will help him communicate better and feel (slightly...) less frustrated with life.

But it is a work in progress. It's hard. But, from experience, things get slightly easier year on year.

Hang in there. I'm sure you're doing a great job (and maybe ask for this post to be moved to the SEND board so you don't get comments like "have you tried actually shouting at him and being firm" - the naivety is astounding).

You're the one who advocated hitting a small child though, aren't you?

Parenting techniques have moved on. It's no longer acceptable to assault young children. Or leave them sitting in their own piss. To be honest your suggestions sound abusive.

To those of us with autistic /ND/PDA children, he sounds like our kids so not sure why you're so keen to persuade her he's just naughty.

Even if he's not ND, no child needs to be assaulted.

But equally a lot of MN posters put any kind of poor behaviour down to ND without even considering that it MIGHT actually be down to poor/lack of/permissive parenting.

We can only go off what the OP tells us. We have no idea how effective their actual parenting is, regardless of what they say they have done or tried.

What’s his diet like?
How much exercise does he get?
How is his digestion (eg is he constipated)?
Does he sleep well?
Does he feel confident and good at things?
Does he have friends?

Honestly i do worry about some posters on mumsnet who are so... Gleefully sadistic about suggesting punishments for children, particularly those who are suspected to be autistic.

Leaving a child sitting in their own urine, hitting them, hitting them with a spade, shutting them in a room on their own to get them out of the way so the parent can ignore them - awful. This is a 3 year old little child we are talking about. Some people shouldn't be anywhere near a child. We see it over and over and over again on mumsnet.

I mean I don't think that poster was literally suggesting hitting them with a spade, I think that was a metaphor. I can see the smacking suggestion was literal though

I would not rise to the bait. OP worked in schools so she knows smacking is a stupid idea that won't solve anything.

I agree about the weird enthusiasm some of the posts have for harsh punishment.

Yeah you're right. I should rise above it. I guess after another hard day of parenting pda kids, seeing people normalizing doling out abuse against children who are struggling hit a nerve.

This.

And in terms of emotional development he’s 30% behind his peers. So even younger. And the answer is to let him sit in his own piss.😡

But the advice for ND kids is also likely to help even if it is poor parenting because the very first #1 thing to do is for the parents to stop using reactive, emotional responses to manage behaviour (like shouting, crying, threatening, bribing, vague or overly wordy instructions) in the moment and move to more de-escalation and proactive approaches, like increasing structure esp around routines, setting everyone up for success, considering physical aspects e.g. sleep/diet/excercise, considering what positive behaviours/skills to encourage and positively reinforcing those. Getting really clear about what behaviour expectations/boundaries are, looking at the situation from the child's perspective, and connection/building positive relationship. These things are good things to do for any child.

And if a child is having behavioural challenges then it makes a lot of sense for a parent to speak to the SENCo at school or their GP or Health Visitor. They are professionals and also can actually see and interact with the parent and child IRL so if they think it's parenting they are better placed to make that judgement than random people on MN and most people will be directed to a parenting course even if ND is suspected, even though a lot of those parenting courses don't work very well for ND children. (Some of them will help because they contain a lot of the "be calm, clear, and improve structure" advice). And despite a lot of MNers insisting that posters "diagnose" other posters' children, nobody on MN can do that. Saying "But MN told me my child has autism" isn't going to get you an EHCP, just like you can't walk into a pharmacy and say "The internet says I have ADHD, can I have some ADHD medication?" It's just a total strawman argument. Obviously you go through the proper channels for an actual diagnosis if warranted. Saying "Have you thought about autism?" or even "She sounds autistic" is a discussion/suggestion, not a diagnosis.

It really doesn't hurt anyone if you treat a NT kid like they are autistic for a short period while you figure out what is going on, whereas it may well cause harm if you just barge in with some bizarre idea of "robust parenting" which is actually just fear based and outdated, if the child has a reason that they can't meet the adult expectations.

@BertieBotts i suppose that, as someone diagnosed with Asperger’s many years ago, I struggle to understand why parenting towards ND children has suddenly had to change. There were ND children years ago (just undiagnosed) who managed fine with more traditional parenting (and no, I’m not talking violence). Schools were not overrun with horrendous and extreme behaviour.

It does seem, now that more children are being diagnosed with ND and there seems to be this big push that they need to be parented ‘differently’, that behaviour has actually got worse in general. Now I do blame a huge proportion of this on screens and games consoles, but again, screen time access is a parenting issue.

You mean it wasn’t talked about, or kids just didn’t go to school and no one cared.

Schools are much tougher than they were even 30 years ago ( when l started teaching). There was a lot less pressure on children and they weren’t t as strict. It was much easier to fly below the radar.