French shopkeeper thinks English parenting is terrible

[Turquoiseforever]

Long one sorry, but I've included details to try and give an accurate picture!

Holidaying in France currently and have had a memorable incident in a shop today that has given me some food for thought, just interested in other people's thoughts on this.

Gave my oldest kids (3 & 6) €5 each to buy a souvenir of their choice at our local seaside town. Most shops turned out to be quite bougie and aimed at adults, but saw one which looked hopeful. Had an A-frame sign outside with a plastic colourful beach windmill on it, and a rack of children's clothes. Went in and quickly realised it was again full of very valuable things. At one end was a basket of handmade crocheted teddies, handmaid kids clothing, and some wooden toys. The kids took a look at the teddies, picked one up each then sat in two kids chairs holding them on their laps for a few minutes while I had a quick look round the shelves around them. We had a look at a few other things together, for full disclosure: when we entered my 3yo picked up a very delicate cup which I quickly set down and reminded her not to do. As we were leaving my 6yo very gently pointed out a necklace to me on a very flimsy stand that started to tip over, which I caught before it fell and set upright again. They looked at a few other things without incident or touching.

We didn't spend long, said merci and went on our way. About 10 mins later a lady from the shop approached us in the street and informed me my kids had broken two toys in her shop. We went back with her and found out that the rabbit teddies they had been holding had some very thin toothpick-like sticks of wood in each ear (to shape them a bit) which had been broken by my daughters twisting the ears, pretending to give them a 'hair style'. I had no idea at all they had been broken. Obviously this is my responsibility and error of judgement, and was totally correct to be brought to my attention.

However, the lady also subjected me to a rant about how French children would NEVER pick things up in a shop, they are taught "limits", whereas all summer she has had English, German etc children visiting and breaking things and being given "no limits" by their parents. Complained we had left the place a mess and her husband had to tidy behind us, because the teddies were placed back in the basket but not sat upright as previously displayed (I had set the chairs back carefully but admittedly been distracted from checking the basket).

I pushed back (calmly!) on her generalised critique of my parenting, and she said she has just lost patience after a summer full of similar experiences and essentially admitted this lecture wasn't personal. Still, it was pretty heavy handed to give in public in front of my children and other customers.

To be clear I know I made an error. We had been in a few quite breakable shops already which required heavy parenting, and I guess I saw an opportunity for a quick relief for us all. Normally I would supervise my children looking at anything handmade, so it was a lax moment, but I did think they were just wool and stuffing and wouldn't suffer at all from light playing. Also, typically I wouldn't take my children into these kind of shops. They have never broken anything in a shop before!

I just wonder how humbled I should be. Did I just catch this lady on a really bad day? Was she a bit racist? Are french children really that obedient all the time? Should I strike it off as a bad day and move on without too much thought, or do I take the criticism on board more strongly and accept I should be stricter with things like this and re-evaluate my parenting?! Do we really have much lower standards in the UK?

It's a shame, we've had a lovely holiday but now I feel like we're not that welcome here and have been judged/looked down on in general. Do we really have a terrible reputation in France?

Racist was the correct word OP, ignore that. I'm a police officer in the Hate Crime unit so it's my bread and butter and you're right.

You should have bought both soft toys - we don’t allow our children to touch items unless they plan to buy them. It sounds like you were using the shop to give yourself a bit of a breather. You obviously think it’s acceptable to allow them to sit for 10 mins playing with the soft toys, otherwise you wouldn’t have started a thread. But the items are less attractive to buyers once they have been played with & touched by other children. It’s really not fair on a small shop to have their goods messed with so they are not in pristine condition.

So are all the posters on here complaining about English/British kids/parenting on this thread also being racist?

Nope, because it's not proven that's based in hostility. (in this case, towards the OP), and we don't know if OP themselves perceive this to be based in hostility towards their children, or if it's more based on the perception of the children's behaviour at the time, rather than their race.
No victim = No crime.
(Aside from some public order offences where the victim is the 'Crown').
Anyway, I think the thread has been derailed enough!

it's not the word the average person uses, its the one uneducated and ignorant people use.

Race is Race, Nationality is Nationality.

Racism and Xenophobia are not the same, and do not mean the same, and shouldn't be used interchangeably.

I’m a “gentle parenting type”. When I go into shops I make it clear my children are not to touch because our fingers can make items dirty that people want to buy. If they can’t manage that then we leave the shop. If they persistently couldn’t manage, I’d explain to them that we’re giving those types of shop a break for a while because they’re finding it too difficult to resist touching. I wouldn’t say I subscribe to everything in gentle parenting but I do like the way it sets clear boundaries and expectations with an understanding of children’s developmental stage and how it uses natural and logical consequences without shouting, unrelated punishments and physical discipline. I also like the way it emphasises teaching children responsibility for their behaviour and the reasoning for desired behaviours rather than blind compliance. Gentle parenting doesn’t mean you let your children run wild or excuse poor behaviour.

The definition in law is to prevent the necessity of several different laws to cover the same crime, that being hate based behaviour on characteristics.

Race is Race, it is not your nationality or Religion.
The law making a definition for the point of prosecution of undesirable behaviour doesn't change the literal meaning of the word within the English Language that has been recognised for hundreds of years.

"without shouting, unrelated punishments and physical discipline"
That's not "gentle parenting", @Hollerationinthedancerieeee ! Just parenting..
Many of us manage to successfully raise children without any of the above!

Xenophobia is not the right word here either because it means hatred of foreigners. Not of specific nationalities.

The woman described was prejudiced against English and German families (purportedly) but, presumably not, say, Russian or Nigerian. So xenophobic is not the best word either.

“English” is not a race. Is this really how the Hate Crime unit is trained, that a nationality = race? It might explain the confused mess around hate incidents as identified by the audit commission.

Its possible to be English and not white, it's possible to be white and not English. Not helped by the common assumption that UK nationals speaking English are generally referred to as English even if they are from Scotland, Wales or NI.

All of which is moot - in this case two children damaged goods in a shop which their parent had already identified as having expensive and delicate items. She just needs to suck it up and pay, not get antsi at a frustrated shopkeeper whose goods have been damaged.

Of course. I didn’t mean to imply that people who don’t subscribe to gentle parenting are all shouting at their children and smacking them! Lots of parents do use unrelated punishments though - e.g. you were naughty in the shop so I’m going to take away some screen time. Gentle parenting doesn’t really endorse that and I can understand why.

My point was more that gentle parenting stems from an overall philosophy that I think is sensible and boundaried, rather than what the previous poster seemed to think it was.

For the record, I don’t think gentle parenting is the only way to be a good parent either.

That was for @MonetsLilac . It didn’t tag you for some reason. Probably my uselessness with technology!

The Oxford dictionary definition of Xenophobia is - dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

While the Cambridge one does say - extreme* dislike or fear of foreigners, their customs, their religions, etc.*

To understand the difference of the two, you need to understand the uses of both Dictionaries. The Oxford is the one for learning the meaning and origin of the word and is considered the more authoritative source.

For Extra info.

Racisms dictionary definition originates around 1936.
Xenophobia was first used around 1880.

The equality act definition has existed since 2010, or 1976 if you consider the Race Relations Act.

I'll continue to use the Dictionary Definition thanks, not the 15yo Legal definition bought in by an act designed to consolidate discrimination laws under one umbrella.

It was not the right word unless we're talking about breaking the Law.
The legal definition is not the same as the language/dictionary definition.

Please do not confuse the two.

Ok, thanks for your clarification 😊

Yes I think we are in agreement about these definitions- they don't apply to the woman described. She doesn't dislike people who are non-French. She specifically dislikes families who are English or German. Xenophobia is fear of foreigners, ie all people who are not from your own country. Not from two specific countries.

I accept that "racist" might not be pedantically correct but its commonly used.

If I were to say [obvs not my actual view] "I think Indian people are stupid", you would (rightfully) call me racist, even though I've said nothing about race, but only nationality

And here we are.

Another worker in a clothes shop snapped at me as I’d tried clothes on and hadn’t put them back on the hanger (I would normally Tbf). I was slightly bemused that she was being paid to stand around (she was doing nothing) but still had a go at me for creating two mins of work.

But surely it's common sense that if you try clothes on, you put them back on the hanger? Where else would you put them?

I mean I wouldn’t let someone abuse my parenting with xenophobic slurs without telling them to shove it, but you might be the kind of wet blanket who lets strangers humiliate you in public. Get a backbone is my advice.

Funnily enough, I have brought French children up - as their nanny. Their parents preferred English nannies as we had a reputation for being tougher on kids than the French! I certainly was more demanding: I had one five-year-old who couldn't use cutlery or dress himself; he cried a lot, but three months later he was perfectly competent. I made the same child walk barefoot to school as he refused his shoes 😂 He only did that once.

I would not require a three-year-old to sit motionless in a shop selling children's goods without touching things. The idea's absurd - so is the idea of teddies with rigid, breakable components. If they aren't toys (and they shouldn't be, they're dangerous), they should be marked thus. And the shopkeeper should have said something at the time!

@Rosscameasdoody, this answer to your comment as well.

If the 3 year old can't sit still for that length of time then they shouldn't be in the shop. They certainly shouldn't play with items which the parent doesn't intend to buy.

Except that 'race' isn't a real thing either. It's an outmoded construct meant to imply that (essentially) skin colour and nose shape reflect different strains of human. The people who formalised this construct claimed the pale-skinned, thin-nosed variety of human was superior to the others.

Stand some very dark-skinned, wide-nosed people from Australia, Indonesia and Africa next to each other, then explain rationally how they're all more similar to one another than to a similarly selected, multinational group of pale-skinned people. Can you come up with anything beyond skin colour and nose shape? Can you do this with dark-skinned people who have thin noses and pale people with squishy noses? How does that work out, then?

I have French family, have lived in France, and now live in an area with lots of French families. I also have lots of French friends. French parents take a more disciplinarian approach in general, and do smack more than their English counterparts. They are stricter and have a more rigid approach to childrearing. It’s not for me, personally, and I consider smacking to be child abuse (banned or not, it happens more in France).

I worked in a nursey in London for a few years and the French kids there were actually the most challenging. The Chinese kids incidentally were by far the best behaved.

OP this was just very poor parenting by you, nothing more deep than that. Children should be taught to look and not touch in shops, they certainly shouldn't be playing with toys you don't intend to buy. A 3 year old should be particularly closely watched. I can completely see why the woman was pissed off and I'm amazed that you could suggest that this is anything other than a you problem. I'd have been mortified.