French shopkeeper thinks English parenting is terrible

[Turquoiseforever]

Long one sorry, but I've included details to try and give an accurate picture!

Holidaying in France currently and have had a memorable incident in a shop today that has given me some food for thought, just interested in other people's thoughts on this.

Gave my oldest kids (3 & 6) €5 each to buy a souvenir of their choice at our local seaside town. Most shops turned out to be quite bougie and aimed at adults, but saw one which looked hopeful. Had an A-frame sign outside with a plastic colourful beach windmill on it, and a rack of children's clothes. Went in and quickly realised it was again full of very valuable things. At one end was a basket of handmade crocheted teddies, handmaid kids clothing, and some wooden toys. The kids took a look at the teddies, picked one up each then sat in two kids chairs holding them on their laps for a few minutes while I had a quick look round the shelves around them. We had a look at a few other things together, for full disclosure: when we entered my 3yo picked up a very delicate cup which I quickly set down and reminded her not to do. As we were leaving my 6yo very gently pointed out a necklace to me on a very flimsy stand that started to tip over, which I caught before it fell and set upright again. They looked at a few other things without incident or touching.

We didn't spend long, said merci and went on our way. About 10 mins later a lady from the shop approached us in the street and informed me my kids had broken two toys in her shop. We went back with her and found out that the rabbit teddies they had been holding had some very thin toothpick-like sticks of wood in each ear (to shape them a bit) which had been broken by my daughters twisting the ears, pretending to give them a 'hair style'. I had no idea at all they had been broken. Obviously this is my responsibility and error of judgement, and was totally correct to be brought to my attention.

However, the lady also subjected me to a rant about how French children would NEVER pick things up in a shop, they are taught "limits", whereas all summer she has had English, German etc children visiting and breaking things and being given "no limits" by their parents. Complained we had left the place a mess and her husband had to tidy behind us, because the teddies were placed back in the basket but not sat upright as previously displayed (I had set the chairs back carefully but admittedly been distracted from checking the basket).

I pushed back (calmly!) on her generalised critique of my parenting, and she said she has just lost patience after a summer full of similar experiences and essentially admitted this lecture wasn't personal. Still, it was pretty heavy handed to give in public in front of my children and other customers.

To be clear I know I made an error. We had been in a few quite breakable shops already which required heavy parenting, and I guess I saw an opportunity for a quick relief for us all. Normally I would supervise my children looking at anything handmade, so it was a lax moment, but I did think they were just wool and stuffing and wouldn't suffer at all from light playing. Also, typically I wouldn't take my children into these kind of shops. They have never broken anything in a shop before!

I just wonder how humbled I should be. Did I just catch this lady on a really bad day? Was she a bit racist? Are french children really that obedient all the time? Should I strike it off as a bad day and move on without too much thought, or do I take the criticism on board more strongly and accept I should be stricter with things like this and re-evaluate my parenting?! Do we really have much lower standards in the UK?

It's a shame, we've had a lovely holiday but now I feel like we're not that welcome here and have been judged/looked down on in general. Do we really have a terrible reputation in France?

Xenophobic

She didn’t just say British kids.

According to OP it was “English, German etc.”

They just look down on us don't they. It’s another one of French people are so much more stylish, slim, and better than us
they are better children, better parents than us

Yes they do this, this is very normal in German culture. They inform you of the right way to do something because they think it is better that you know. But there is no judgement in it, it's simply giving information. They do however find it very rude if the information is then ignored! Which is not always helpful e.g. if someone is trying to give you parenting advice out and about - I was in a tram yesterday and there was a young mother with a toddler around 1-2 years old in an odd contraption part way between a microfold pram and one of those trikes with a handle, which aren't common here, and an older lady said to her "Your pram is no good - your baby can't see your face. It's bad for him." The young woman I assume did not understand German, because she reacted as though the woman had complimented her baby for being so cute, but without saying any actual words. This really bothered the older woman, who tried to reiterate her message in simpler words, but she just smiled back.

Germans would also tell children of the rules, but there is some understanding that younger children in general won't necessarily have the impulse control etc. The way German law works, it's sensible to have personal liability insurance and almost everyone has it, but there is a specific clause in the law that says children under the age of 7 cannot be held responsible/are not insurable under a standard policy, because they are counted as "forces of nature" which I love. (Which reminds me, I should update our policy to ensure DS2 who is absolutely a force of nature is covered!)

There’s a really interesting book called ‘French children don’t throw food’. Worth a read x

This made me actually laugh. I've worked in two schools abroad with french children. No, they're not better behaved than British children. In fact I would say they were more feral and undisciplined.

Ok thanks everyone, this took off more than expected!

I'm going to comment once then log off for another five years or whatever - I don't have any intention to dwell on this and listen to this response be picked apart, but I know it's nice to have closure feedback from the OP 😂

Firstly as I commented before, I really regret using the word racist. It was a shortcut way of saying "is she making an unfair generalisation" but clearly has been unhelpful and I was wrong to muddy the water with this.

Being Mumsnet, I knew to expect plenty of piling on about how I must be an awful parent overall based on this one incident. So thanks for not disappointing there! As clearly stated in the original post, I know I was in the wrong. Reading a lot of these responses I have concluded that "behaviour in shops" is probably a bit of a blind spot for me and this situation was more than an unlucky oopsie. I can confidently say I have invested a LOT of time and energy in parenting, I don't follow permissive parenting, I'm fine saying "no" and dealing with the ensuing meltdowns, we don't do iPads, I don't cook alternate meals if they don't like dinner etc etc etc. My eldest is suspected ND and I've dealt with some major parenting challenges. I guess this is a situation I don't face often and haven't given enough thought about compared to other parenting matters.
There does seem to be quite different opinions on expected behaviour in shops though. Interestingly, the independent book shop in my home town has very little floor space, yet still squeezes in bean bags and a toddler size chair in the children's section. I don't actually take my children in there much at all - I would see the risk of bending or tearing a book as too high. But it does mean that children's sections of shops aren't necessarily always places of "look don't touch". However, I see that cuddly toys are different to books and was also ignorant to different expectations in french shops. Also, I told my daughter not to twist the ears when I saw her doing this. Yes, she shouldn't have had the opportunity of doing this in the first place, I know. It's been a long summer looking after both of them plus my baby on my own most days, and I'm not operating at peak parenting to be honest. Doesn't make it ok but funnily enough I haven't met a perfect parent yet.

I didn't add this in the original message as it wasn't the part of the debate I wanted to dwell on, but I bought one of the toys. Do with that what you will - I'm sure some will slate me for not buying both.

Yes, when I read OP I was cringing. DD wouldn't ever pick anything up in a shop - why have you taught them that that is OK, they are children so of course things will break - we have plastic cups we give them for a reason, no? Even at 14 she's not keen on touching anything unless she knows she really wants to buy it. Does anyone actually have to handle things then put it back, maybe feeling fabric at a push?

I feel as if a lot of parents zone out in shops and pretend or literally don't care that their kids are poking holes in things, racing up and down isles, slamming fridge doors etc. It's like a different rule applies to some people and I don't know what their expectations of other people are in these scenarios. Yes your kids were touching, picking things up and broke them. You allowed them to do that so of course as the responsible adult you are at fault.

So I hope you bought both the broken toys you didn’t say? Can’t believe you let your kids play with a toy you weren’t buying raps soft toy that could get grubby. Then to hear you let your child twist it up I’m so shocked that’s terrible and so disrespectful of the shopkeepers stuff. So glad she called you out. Unfair to say all British kids are like it but yours certainly we’re being unsupervised and would have infuriated me if it was my shop.
but French school kids in London are pretty unruly it must be said.

Lordy all we need now is that ghastly social climber English woman who used to embellish her chic Paris life. Yes she used to rabbit on about chic slim Paris women and her fabulous affluent marriage to Charles Aznavour

Your children behaved in a similar way to the way a lot of children in this country (UK) do. IMO it’s really poor behaviour and highly frustrating for the shopkeeper. Nothing should have been touched without a serious interest in purchasing it. You know quite well that if every visiting child engaged in “light play” with these items that they’d be in a really shitty state pretty quickly. We do seem to tolerate this in the UK - again, I’m not sure why, it’s very poor. I cringe when I see kids mauling, dirtying, dropping anything they want in shops - I never ever allowed mine to do this and one is autistic so required a huge effort to keep to decent behaviour in shops.

The shopkeeper has observed many British children behaving this way. It’s not racist or stereotyping or xenophobic or any of that - it a simple observation of her real experiences.

People let children behave so badly everywhere these days in the UK. At our local pool, there are adult only times and it’s so much better. Not only for the pool but also the changing area. People let their children almost literally climb the walls. Absolutely crazy. The day before yesterday I was changing and a girl of about 7 climbed up onto the top of a gate. The gate was part of a corner which is meant to be used by parents to contain young children for their own safety. It wasn’t in use so the 7yo decided to stand right on top of it whilst it was swinging loose. the mother was half way out the door about 15 feet away. Completely oblivious to the fact that the child could have cracked her head open if she’d fallen off this structure that was not meant to be climbed. I have 2 kids who are grown up and I now hate going to places where there are loads of kids. Parents don’t parent. It’s really wearing and I sympathise with the shopkeeper.

I would very much not underestimate that it is the 30th of august; the absolute end of les vacances (la rentrée is Monday[. She has probably just absolutely had enough (ras du bol[, of tourists, damage,summer, and people.

French children lead boring lives without joy, and constantly under the thumb. Or at least that has been my observation. In contrast, the Dutch go too far with little to no oversight. British parenting is a good compromise IMO.

The French, Germans, Dutch & Belgians will take any any opportunity they can get to display their superiority over the British. It’s just a guilt/inferiority complex from the Second World War. I would just ignore it. Your children sound lovely.

Oh and I read french children don't throw food when pregnant with my eldest funnily enough. I thought about it this trip, as there was so much talk about how children's menus in France are full of interesting, sophisticated food, yet all I have encountered here (at nice, foody places!) are chicken/burger/fish and chips for children. But maybe they are just catering to the tastes of us awful tourists 😀 Also a lot of places don't have high chairs at all despite a reputation for children being expected to eat out with adults.

I also remember the chapter about how all French children sleep through the night because the parents "pause" to let them settle themselves if they wake crying, instead of rushing in. Three children in I can say, what a load of twaddle 😂

Nah, Try harder
Even op concedes she has blind spot regards her children behaviour on occasion

Not saying all Scots are loveable rogues just that we get a different response generally in France if we say ecosse and we visit 1-2 times a year.

I’ve NRTFT so I may be the fifth person to point this out to you.

But legally (and yes, IAAL) the word “race” encompasses nationality, national origin and citizenship, as well as ethnic and racial groups.

So yes, if the French shopkeeper was being anti-British then that was racist.

ETA: from what OP has said, the shopkeeper was indeed being racist by trotting out negative stereotypes about British and German parenting, and possibly discriminating against OP/treating her less favourably as a result. Though I have every sympathy for the shopkeeper in criticising OP in allowing her kids to damage her stock.

You didn’t parent them well in that shop so I would just take it as valid criticism.

Seems like she was referencing tourists, that’s been her experience and she’d reached the end of her tether after your visit.

Why on earth did u let DC sit and play with the toys and then leave without buying them? Saying Merci and leaving empty handed was exceptionally rude.

I don't let my kids touch anything in shops. You don't touch what doesn't belong to you.

Some people like to moan regardless. This is just an angry person who feels the need to make a big deal about something trivial. The shopkeeper has made a generalisation of how they’ve perceived nationalities in their shop.

Try not to take it personally.

You weren't going to buy the toys, but let your kids play with them anyway? That's not acceptable in my book. Look don't touch unless you're buying.

I would agree with the shopkeeper, British parenting is slack in comparison to French parenting. I split my time between both countries as have dual nationality. French parents have much greater expectations and hold their children to high standards in all aspects of life, including being able to sit at table and behave at mealtimes. This is how I was raised.

If you want a high chair, go to McDo's.

I didn't suggest anyone else said this. It is entirely my own observation of British children based on 25 years in education.

What I said was that I agreed with the shop keeper that British children are badly behaved....and in my opinion it's because many parents don't say no to their children.

The op was a perfect example, she let her small children wander to the other end of a shop to play with something that looked like toys and she didn't watch them closely or say 'No put that back' and they broke something.

That's a massive overreaction. @GoAwayAutumn's post is quite tame.

Look with your eyes not your hands is always a pretty good rule of thumb but one that seems to be less frequently used.