Parenting across two countries

[Linzie79]

My 12-year-old daughter and I live in the UK and her dad lives in Spain. Over the last couple of years especially she's said how much she hates England and prefers Spain. I've always been a single mum but I've made a real effort to take her to Spain to see her dad and make sure she spends time with both sides of the family. Over the last couple of months our relationship has become so strained and she says she wants to live with her dad. The thought of not being a presencial parent, there to support her through puberty and the challenges of life breaks my heart, but I worry that she is going to resent me if she stays here. She has more family in Spain and really just me here. I feel like I should let her go for her own mental health because right now she just thinks I'm a terrible parent and she would be happier there. Besides losing her, I worry about her education and once she goes there, there is really no coming back as it would disrupt her studies too much. I feel like I have to let her go so I can still maintain some kind of relationship with her and maybe when she's older she'll come back to me in terms of closeness. I don't think she likes my personality and with me going through perimenopause she probably picks up on my changing moods. Any advice or anyone in a similar situation?

Right, I see you are just hateful towards Spain.

Believe me I will not have trouble once I qualify. My children will be fine.

It is incredible to me that you have written off the entire country based on your very limited experience.

You seem extremely unpleasant and so am not at all surprised that Spain didn't work out for you.

All my children were born here, by the way, so we aren't moving back to a country where they would know noone and have zero community whatsoever. How dare you insinuate that I am putting myself first by raising my children here and not moving back to the UK like you?

I came to defend the country that is my home and my children's home. You are making personal attacks and suggesting my kids have no future.

As I said, I can see why Spain wasn't for you.
Also - drug use? I don't know where in the UK you are from but the drug problems, violence problems and alcoholism that is rife in the UK is one of the reasons why we don't live there. Of course there is drug use in Spain. But the UK's crime statistics are through the roof in comparison to Spain, particularly when it comes to violent/hate crime. Teenage pregnancy rates are also far higher in the UK than in Spain.

Anyway - I will give up here as you have turned personally nasty and are making your comments based on your own prejudice as opposed to any real fact.

I am still struggling to understand why you think that the whole of Spain is without any professional people or successful business people - I'm not sure how you think we function without doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, teachers .....contrary to your opinion it is not the case that everyone intelligent leaves here for the UK. Bizarre viewpoint indeed.

Thank you so much. You make some really great points. I've bought the book so I'll start reading that ASAP! I'm struggling to know what is typical tween behaviour and what is something more deep-rooted. I'll always feel guilt for moving away from her spanish family but I was living a life there to please others.

Interesting. I have a Spanish colleague here in the UK and she's said much the same thing - that there were no opportunities for her in Spain once she'd graduated. She was gutted, because she didn't want to leave her country, her family, her friends, etc, but she moved to the UK, learned English from scratch and now has a good job here. But it's sad how few opportunities there are in many Mediterranean countries for young people. As I understand it, it's just the same in Italy and Greece.

You don’t need to feel guilt op. The UK is a beautiful country with lots of opportunities for young people. Despite the whinging of the British, you have given her a loving, stable life. Have you considered that you are doing too much? Driven by guilt rather than focusing on the great life you have given her?

Why won’t her father and his family visit her here? It sounds very one sided.

You are incredibly defensive and can not bear to look at the truth, which in reality is not the rosy picture you are painting, and it is about to get far worse.

Your idea about the UK seems wildly out of touch by about two or three decades.

Young people on the whole don’t like to drink or take drugs and haven’t for a long time. And pregnancies have hit an all time low! The conversation is all about increasing the birth rate, again, don’t let the truth stand in your way my friend.

You might be happy for your dc to clean restaurants and work in bars etc because that’s all they can find, we are making other choices, thanks.

Professional roles are limited in Spain, and it still has a long way to go in terms of meritocracy. So honestly yes I would be worried, unless you are supremely well connected and or incredibly wealthy through a trust fund or similar.

Thank you so much. All in all, I agree that the UK is a great place. Here I also encourage my daughter to embrace her Spanish roots. She goes to Spanish school every Sunday to keep the language up, she has classical guitar lessons. She is academically motivated so I promote things like the Duke of Edinburgh award she can start in a couple of years and let her know how great it is that she could go to university in the UK or Spain. I just feel that she is part existing in the UK, that Spain looks better for her. We do also have a clash of personalities, which doesn't help. Someone did use the analogy of a pack of dogs; she sees her dad as a dominant one (strong), and as I've always bent backwards to make things work as best I can, this has resulted in a tired, frustrated one (hence weak?). Her grandparents won't visit as they've rarely ever left their village, let alone get on a plane. Her dad won't because he has his routine and I take her over (I can't really speak for him but this is the impression over all these years).

Hi OP

I co-parent across the channel.
It is very hard even if you are both trying to be on the same page and it is amicable.
I think you, as primary care giver, have the hardest role and it's bloody tricky putting up with the resentment when the non-resident parent seems to be free from the vitriol.
If you are letting them try living with their father, much better to do it before the start of year 10.
Preferably have them back year 9 to cope with options and reverse culture shock.
But of course with the caveat they may choose not up come back at all once settled/with friends.
If you let them go they may be thankful in the future or they may see it as abandonment, even though they chose to go. If they fall in love in Spain and find a significant other, eventually, highly unlikely bordering on impossible they'll ever come back.
It is painful. It is like a living bereavement. But you'll be damned if you do, damned if you don't and blamed regardless at which point you need to ask yourself: which death do I want to die?

You speak as if Spain has no professionals - doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers etc.

Nor would DD be limited to Spain for uni or work. With EU citizenship she would have the option of free uni anywhere in the EU and a choice of jobs in 27 countries rather than one. Spanish also opens up Latin America for her too. And she can always move to U.K. for work if she chooses too. She could have the best of both worlds basically.

You've hit the nail on the head! It's an impossible situation, fraught with what-ifs, risks coming from all sides. How do you manage with the distance? It could also be a case of seeing grandparents getting older and wanting to spend more time with them. I think I just need to make sure I'm being open to listening and be strong, and careful with my words. I have this resentment and pain I can't let go of which stems from me doing everything, and I'm sure my daughter feels this. I'm the only 'bad cop' in her life, and in her tween mind I've become an irritant!

As her father won't even make the effort to visit her in UK, or come for her, will he be prepared to put the effort in it takes to successfully parent full time? It looks like it is you doing all tge running around.

Their father comes here to visit them 3-4 times a year.
I facilitate the relationship but I also take all the flak from both typical teenagers.
My third child lives with their father (adult now, their choice) and our relationship is fractured.
They do not want to live here or work here but they are not happy in the EU because of the minimum wage crappy job they are doing.
I don't have an answer for you, lovely. I wish I did.
But I do hope it works out for you all. X

100% agree with all this.

Professional roles in the U.K. or EU will depend entirely on successfully completing an education of substance, with a solid degree from a decent university or the equivalent, not to mention being fluent in the chosen EU country - unless the child is a linguist this isn’t as easy as it sounds.

The strong EU countries that have plentiful jobs have the pick of the crop, and the competition is fierce. That is why it’s so important, because it is easy to end up absolutely nowhere. Particularly in backwater destinations or ones overly reliant on tourism.

I would be factoring in AI, climate change and migration into every decision dd makes as she gets older. Her options are wide open with a U.K. education and a good degree at a prestigious university - that could easily be lost.

Getting a degree and reasonable A levels (or the equivalent) is not rocket science. You talk as if it were the hardest thing on earth. (The bac is harder). DD can go to an international school and a decent uni, she will be fine. She already speaks Spanish and will end up bilingual. You do not need to be a linguist to master another language that is purely a British idea.

It’s always going to be a stronger position to have a choice of 27 countries for work and living rather than just the one. It’s also better to start out life with no debt. But a U.K. uni is still on the table.

For the final time because much as I want to let it go (and I will regarding your foulness to me, who is "riddled with arthritis" (yes I noticed you stuck that in there in your other post about what happens when people are in their late sixties to make a little dig at someone who has had it for most of their life..... very clever indeed).

There. Are. Professional. And. Successful.People.In.Spain.

I'm one of them. Despite "being English" and "my health issues". I have worked very hard, and I am successful. I'm doing a Spanish law degree because I want to change career and well - because I can. I already have a degree in an academic subject from a Russell Group university in the UK.

Good lord. And separately to that, has it ever occurred to you that there might be people who have the kind of jobs you look down your nose at who are decent, happy people? That money and professional success isn't everything? And yes some people in Spain are poor just like some people in the UK are poor.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how societies work.

Perhaps you weren't successful in Spain. It's ok - it is of course more difficult to become successful in a country that you were not born in as you have to build yourself up from nothing. But that doesn't mean noone is able to do it, nor that your children couldn't have managed. My kids are in public school here (because I believe in a state education, because I want them to grow up as Catalan kids do, because I appreciate the fact that they are all now trilingual as a result, because I like the values that are taught in public schools etc etc).

Someone with your views (if they had enough money) could have sent their children to one of the many British international schools and they could have benefited from the UK education and gone to UK universities and you would have been able to stay in Spain. Of course, you would have been have to have been able to afford that yourself, perhaps you couldn't and that's fine but it does somewhat suggest that your rage against Spain was because you yourself didn't do well here. That doesn't mean that noone can.

For someone with such an obsession with education you come across as someone with a very limited understanding of the world.

Not wading into an argument between you guys as it is too hot but from lived experience, you can both be right.
I have a family member who has made a decent living teaching English in Spain for three decades now, does it virtually, self-employed, kept clients during Covid. I guess it can be done.
I also have an adult child mentioned above who is stuck in a different EU country doing bar work, because their language deficit in the second language meant, despite great A-levels, they struggled at degree level. They moved there when they were five.

I actually think this is a very sensible point. Perhaps I have a different viewpoint because my children have lived here all their lives and therefore have zero language issues and I felt the same would be true for OP's half Spanish child. If someone moves here with their children who don't have a strong connection to Spain previously at a later stage of course that makes things more difficult.

I find it hard to believe that someone who moved to a country at 5 struggled with that language at degree level. They’re more likely to lose their original language at that age. Equally quite a number of EU unis offer degrees taught in English. Perhaps they weren’t degree material or it wasn’t the right subject? There are always pathways that don’t require a degree. Some EU countries are much better at offering apprenticeships for example than the U.K.

I think it’s a fair point.

But one has to consider all the kids who come here as immigrants who are fluent in English within a few years. Kids with English as an additional language are as likely to take up places at grammar schools as at non-selectives, indicating those are up to the same language skills as their peers by 11. They’re also more likely to stay in education and go to uni.

Believe it or not, it's true - they were not born bilingual. Both parents English albeit both able to speak the language (my own degree was in it and I've taught it). They learnt the foreign language from five, went through the school system successfully (as good grades as native speakers were getting) but the degree: which was in both the language and English (why they chose it) proved too difficult.
I have a double honours degree and some of the stuff they sent me, I was struggling (degree was Socioeconomics).
Their A-level grade equivalent, was high, and in that region was also deemed one of the hardest to do. Yes, I am gutted for them. Yes, I feel hopeless. Yes, they need to jump back on the bus and find a different degree or an apprenticeship. I am saying it is not as easy as you make out.

Fair enough, could they have switched to a course at that uni or transferred to one of the unis that teach in English?

Quite a number of people make a disastrous first choice of degree for many different reasons, even in their native language. I wish you both the best.

You make a very good point here. I speak 4 languages, 2 with native level fluency and I grew up in the UK but there is no question that there is a bit of a block it seems for a lot of people from the UK when it comes to language learning. This may come from an apathy "everyone speaks English anyway" or from the education system not focusing on language learning from early enough, I don't know.

But you are absolutely correct that there are thousands of children who move to the UK with zero English at primary age and yet manage to become very academically successful, hold their own in UK universities etc. This is clearly not due to superior linguistic support in British state schools for bon English speakers as from what I understand this is extremely limited. It may be because in the UK people are not capable of conversing with them in their native language to help them so they literally HAVE to learn, whereas in most other countries there will be people who speak English a bit and will sometimes use it to support the English speaking kids thus meaning they are not thrown in at the deep end so much.

The courts take a child's views into account for custody at this age but I'm not sure that's the case for international custody. I would speak to a lawyer who deals with this specifically and understands the law in Spain too. I think if she changed her mind there is a chance you couldn't demand her back. He might be ok with letting her come back but if Grandma and Grandpa want her to stay will he side with them?

I would tell her she needs to start taking extra Spanish classes to start with, get her at the right level just in case but really I wouldn't encourage it before she's 16. Tell her when she's 16 she can make the decision for herself but needs to be ready for it before then.

I would start letting her fly out alone and spend far more time there though if she's able.

This is something I mentioned earlier. Once she has been here for 6 months Spanish jurisdiction will apply. If there is a custody dispute or dispute of her place of residency and she is established in school here and living with her father and has regular contact with her Spanish grandparents (unlike the UK grandparents can also file for visitation rights with their grandchildren - they cannot be prevented from seeing their grandchildren without just cause (see art. 160.2 Codigo Civil) so a removal against the child's will from Spain after 6 months would be a complete no go and even if the child started to say they wanted to go back to the UK under the age of 14 they would be heard but it would not be enough in and of itself that the child wanted to go back to the UK.

So while I am absolutely standing by my opinion that I can see why OPs child and her father would prefer her to be here, the idea of a trial period is unwise as it may not be possible to undo.

Thanks. Could not have really switched unless it was sustainability (not interested) or teaching (not suitable, they hate kids!). None of the unis have English only courses except for International business or American studies. Trust me, I looked.

OP, there are airlines that you pay more for for accompanied flights as a minor. Not sure about Spain but I know KLM were excellent.