Parenting across two countries

[Linzie79]

My 12-year-old daughter and I live in the UK and her dad lives in Spain. Over the last couple of years especially she's said how much she hates England and prefers Spain. I've always been a single mum but I've made a real effort to take her to Spain to see her dad and make sure she spends time with both sides of the family. Over the last couple of months our relationship has become so strained and she says she wants to live with her dad. The thought of not being a presencial parent, there to support her through puberty and the challenges of life breaks my heart, but I worry that she is going to resent me if she stays here. She has more family in Spain and really just me here. I feel like I should let her go for her own mental health because right now she just thinks I'm a terrible parent and she would be happier there. Besides losing her, I worry about her education and once she goes there, there is really no coming back as it would disrupt her studies too much. I feel like I have to let her go so I can still maintain some kind of relationship with her and maybe when she's older she'll come back to me in terms of closeness. I don't think she likes my personality and with me going through perimenopause she probably picks up on my changing moods. Any advice or anyone in a similar situation?

Read my earlier post.

My parents divorced and lived in two different countries.

I would have preferred to live with my father. He lived in an area where there was a lot more to do. My mother lived in a remote area.

In the end, i felt too guilty yo leave my mother and i stayed with her. Though i think it would have been better to live with my dad at the time.

Its a very hard choice for a 12 year old to make. Because the child doesnt really get to choose to do what she wants, she gets guilt tripped one way or the other.

I ended up doing what my mother wanted, me living with her. When i think it would have been a lot better for me to live with my dad.

I would like to point out we have a house there, and I have personally lived in Spain for close to a decade!!

You know as well as I do the public healthcare system is absolutely dire, and it’s only the private health system in Spain that is any good, you are making huge assumptions that the child’s family are able to fund that kind of expense.

Secondly,, the economic outlook as well as employment stats means many many young Spanish adults actually come to the U.K. to work. They can’t find jobs in Spain. It’s a massive problem, and the outlook is bleak not buoyant.

The quality of education is much lower, and OP’s dd is likely to fall behind certainly initially. Losing an entire year of schooling to ‘trial’ living somewhere else is really ill advised so close to her GCSEs. The opportunities here vastly outweigh those in Spain - with a much broader scope and choice for post grads. Those looking for apprenticeships and the jobs market generally is much stronger in the U.K.

The standard of living is much lower too generally speaking. It’s much more noticeable in the winter when it’s damp and cold in most of Spain except the very south which can still be chilly. Depending on where they are, it can also be incredibly soulless and boring in the winter, and absolutely baking hot in the summer. It is a much more backward/traditional country, and has never really caught up with Northern Europe as a whole,

Children need their mother most of all, and none more than teenage girls. She is uniquely vulnerable, growing up away from the love, protection and unconditional care of a mother that adores her, it will be a bereavement of sorts to be without a mother at this age for such a prolonged, extended time, it’s too far away for any relationship to exist in the real sense of the word.

Its time her father stepped up and visited dd at home, and for op to spend the money on some wonderful adventures together instead. Paris, New York or the destination choice of the dd, and to start investing in THEIR relationship and not her father’s/in laws that’s for sure! The priority has to be the mother/daiughter relationship for the next few years.

You must not live in Catalunya.

I have rheumatoid arthritis and ulcerative colitis and I have had 3 children in public hospitals here.

The "wonderful NHS" MISSED my RA repeatedly and I was never able to get a doctor's appointment. ( I lived in the UK until I am was 19 and then again for a year or so aged 26-27.)

Here, I can see my GP within an hour or so and I live in the centre of a major city. I don't have private healthcare because I am uninsurable due to my 2 chronic illnesses so all my experience is with the public hospital.

The standard of living here is wonderful.

"Having a house here" isn't living and integrating here. You need to actually live here as your home, speak Spanish fluently (which presumably will not be an issue for OPs daughter) and not see it as "backward" in order for living here to work out for you though...

My mum lives in Spain , she does not speak Spanish but she says Spanish public healthcare it is really good, no need for private.

as far as I know Spanish education is public and good too but in your daughter's case as she I already 12 and always studied in a English school if I were you I would enroll her in a British school in Spain. She still can do activities in Spanish after school ( swimming clubs, dance etc) to feel more integrated .

I’ve just been reading the teen interpreter by Terri Apter, loads about teens pulling away and how parents experience this as rejecting and then misstep in their responses, and miss all the more subtle ways teens seek to connect and be reassured by parents. I think there’s a danger of permanent damage happening here if you handle it from a place of feeling she is only pushing you away. Where she lives is kind of secondary, she needs this relationship with you and it sounds like there is work that could be done, for your relationship, and on yourself as you are obv isolated and maybe low? (I get it, I’m a single mum with fuck all support network until recently when I was diagnosed with cancer and it forced me to reach out. Our life is actually so much nicer now)

And is it really worth holding onto your job if you could potentially go with her? She is only 12, she won’t necessarily be off and not needing parental support for a long time.

I do highly recommend that book as I think you’ll find it both helpful and soothing, and if you can afford it maybe some family therapy before you make any big decisions

good luck, it’s not easy!

I lived and worked there for nearly ten years, thanks. I know exactly what it is like. There are serious problems in Spain that you seem ti be completely unaware of oddly. It is lot an an endless holiday that’s for sure.

The house is still ours, but we prefer not to live there. We moved back hone because we missed our family, had better job opportunities and wanted our children to go to a proper university as to not hinder their life chances. So many others we know did the same. Once the dc are older.

As someone that has worked and lived there for years, I found the private healthcare exceptional, and the public healthcare barbaric. Do you get meds like biologics for your RA completely free of charge?? I very much doubt that given it is £13000 a year paid for by the British tax payer.

Spain is a great country, culturally more interesting than many, but it is in decline and its hopeless for the young. Most of whom move to London and other world capitals to work and have professional careers. Fact.

Yes I indeed get biologics completely free of charge and it was given to me as first treatment option due to my age (31 at age of diagnosis) .When I lived in England I was repeatedly turned away and informed I was "tired". Here they immediately tested me called for an appointment Monday morning, seen Monday afternoon blood tests Tuesday morning, results Thursday morning, first rheumatology appointment the following week.... second hospital rheumatology appointment 2 weeks after that - yes- on the public system).

It's not paid for by the British tax payer 😂....I have been working in Spain for 20 years and paying my social security here. I have effectively no ties to the UK except that my parents, brother and uncle live there.

Perhaps you never properly integrated into society here. Perhaps what you experienced ten years ago is not the Spain of today. I am literally at "a proper university" right now studying law.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/12/12/what-spain-can-teach-the-rest-of-europe

But your scathing comments about Spain are not reflective of the reality here at all.

a) By the sound of it you haven't been here for years except to visit your holiday home
b) you don't sound like you actually integrated into Spanish society really.

The OP s child is from a Spanish family on her father's side. Her experience won't be anything like yours.

And I have said this many times, there is no amount of money that could convince me to move back to the UK and raise my children there. None. Here they have a childhood and it is a lot safer.

I’ve just been reading the teen interpreter by Terri Apter, loads about teens pulling away and how parents experience this as rejecting and then misstep in their responses, and miss all the more subtle ways teens seek to connect and be reassured by parents. I think there’s a danger of permanent damage happening here if you handle it from a place of feeling she is only pushing you away.

I agree.

Out of interest, are you fluent in Spanish?

I am glad you are happy. That’s important in life.

A childhood spent in Spain isn’t the issue, it’s what happens after! No one is saying it’s a horrible place to grow up, but the employment and prospects for young people is just dire.

My dc are studying for professional careers in Medicine and Economics at Oxford and Edinburgh, respectfully it is nothing to do with Spanish ‘society’ and integrating - that was easy - and everything to do with education, employment and the life chances of young adults.

Maybe it’s pressed a nerve and you have some private concerns, as you are very much labouring the point that your decision was right, no matter what, and maybe it was for you, but for us we very much want our children to have proper jobs and security in the future.

It’s unlikely you could come back and afford a house anyway. You can easily be priced out. Some of the expats we know that are much older simply can’t come back now even if they wanted to, as they wouldn’t be able to afford to live here now. That was a major concern for us. Getting very old and ill with no family or support.
It can be an issue for some.

Op must really know what she is getting into. The sacrifices and commitments might be for life. If she has a good job, a lovely community and a happy life here, I would not be giving that up to facilitate the whims of a 12 year old that is going through a natural stage of growing up.

Of course. How would I have worked?!

There is absolutely no question in my mind that moving here was the correct decision for me. No nerve touching whatsoever.

Like I said, there are variants. I live in Barcelona. Perhaps you lived in a different comunidad autonoma and things were very different, or perhaps it is that things are better now than they were when you were here. I don't know.

I'm just giving the OP the perspective of someone who lives here now, and who thinks that actually there is a good chance that her child might be better off in Spain than in the UK.

You never mention what it is like for teenagers and young adults. Her dd is just about to be a teenager - her childhood is coming to an end, and they are very much looking to the future. Most students do study overseas - many come to London and other world cities. That’s the point isn’t it! Unless op is happy for her dd to do restaurant work (at best) or similar she really needs to look ahead.

I just don't understand your insistence that the OPs daughter will end up in a minimum wage job.

My son is a teenager. He's doing well. My other son is 8 and my daughter is 2.

It's really strange how you seem to be convinced that everyone in Spain is on minimum wage. I run a business here and have done for years, I'm not broke. When I finish my degree I will be a lawyer. I am 40 but have friends of all ages, and a couple of them are late 20s lawyers. It is as if you don't understand that Spain has successful people just like any other country.

And my ex (who is also one of my best friends) does "restaurant work". He makes a very good salary as a chef in a high end restaurant, owns his own apartment etc....and he came here from Japan 25 years ago.

We are in very different places.

Doing well is not the same as achieving qualifications that are recognised globally and establishing a professional career. Your son may be doing ‘well’, but it’s almost certainly not enough. With respect your dc are too young for this to be an issue now, but it will be in time.

Your law degree does not equate to you getting a job in a law firm! At 40 plus when they have the pick of the young fresh grads, it may not be as easy as you think to stroll into a Spanish law firm and get a job. Particularly if you have health issues, and are English. That is just the reality.

Some story about someone buying an apartment 25 years ago on restaurant wages is not inspiring or comforting to me. I want more much more for my children than barely surviving.

The reality is that to secure a good job or any job in Spain - it is extremely competitive, and without one your dc may well have a lifetime of poverty which is not fun at all. It’s not glamorous, it is grim, particularly in Barcelona. Our children are our priority, we do not put ourselves first, that is where we differ.

You live there because it suits you, but you are about to face some very challenging issues in the near future.

Spain has some serious issues to contend with, and you can pretend they don’t exist, but I looked at the facts and the reality when making my decision. The drug use alone was terrifying. There is real sense of despair and hopelessness affecting the young. It’s not isolated to Spain, it’s an issue in many countries in southern Europe.

We are swimming now, such an amazing summer. I wish you all the best whatever you decide! Always look to the future.

Qualifications and education is for life. Non negotiable. A plan preferably of career, uni routes based on your child’s strengths and interests. Remember world class universities might be standard here, but they are not everywhere, it will shape the rest of their lives.

Fast forward to the bracket 18-30 years and look at the statistics and employment opportunities in her father’s area. Bar work might be great at 18 yrs but not so much at 68 yrs riddled with arthritis, and joint replacements.

Never underestimate your influence and love op, I have no doubt your dd loves you very much. She is just flexing.

So my SS at a similar age decided he wanted to live with us (his dad). 3 years later he was back with his mum. If I knew now what I knew then I would investigate and be sure of his motivations before just saying yes. It was very much a case of a minor being immature and not really understanding ‘weekend dad’ vs ‘full time responsible parent dad’. My husband has always been the stricter more routine orientated parent but because we only saw SC every 2nd weekend there was never a need for us to get involved in schooling and homework and bed times and general rules. Obviously having him full time meant that we had to be responsible parents and my SS felt eventually that day to day life was better with his mum as she was more laid back. The disruption didn’t serve his education well having to move schools twice and his mother’s attitude became even more laid back as she was obviously scared to ‘lose’ her son if she implemented any rules. He nearly failed his last year of high school and is a real late starter in life because of it. As I said before I would pry him more on his motivations before just saying yes again, it was a terribly disruptive time for our family and really strained relationships.

I live in Spain and if I were you I would do everything to keep her in the uk. The public education system here is extremely old-fashioned - rote learning from text books and so many exams. The kids are stressed out like you wouldn’t believe and repeating years is pretty commonplace. Then, when you do finish school you have to do a really difficult exam to get into university called PAU. When you eventually qualify opportunities are scarce and many people do not end up doing what they trained in, salaries are low, cost of living has gone up a lot in comparison to what people earn too. She’s going to have more opportunities in the uk. 12 is a difficult age for many kids and what she’s experiencing on holiday will be nothing like the reality.

Could she go for a year, before the reality of thinking about GCSE subjects kicks in?

There are workarounds for the concerns here. 1. International school and 2. If she has already or can get EU citizenship, she has the right to go to university anywhere in the EU for free. English speaking courses are taught at Maastricht, Leiden and Bologna to name a few. DD also has the opportunity to be bilingual.

Op must really know what she is getting into. The sacrifices and commitments might be for life. If she has a good job, a lovely community and a happy life here, I would not be giving that up to facilitate the whims of a 12 year old that is going through a natural stage of growing up.

It’s very odd to portray the desire of a 12 year old to have a closer relationship to her father and grandmother as a “whim”. OP has said she has no friends here so there is no real community to speak of.

^ 100% this.

It is a whim because she has never lived there full time, or even for extended periods or out of season. Her father has shown zero inclination to develop their relationship, he can’t even be bothered to visit her. She is a child and one that is too young to make such long lasting life decisions.

She lived there for 3 years as a child. Her DF seems perfectly happy to have her stay with him he’s just too lazy to get on a plane.

I don’t think 12 is too young to make life-changing decisions - I made one at that age and it was the correct one for me. I don’t think it’s too young to know where you want to live and who you want to spend your time with.