OK, so I'm reading Alfie Kohn...

[Monkeybird]

...and it is very interesting. And is making me feel like SHITE. As if I've been a disaster area my whole parenting life (punishments/consequences: tick. rewards/bribes: tick...). And I can see the WHOLE logic of his argument and it all makes complete sense.

My oldest child is a PITA sometimes. I think I love him unconditionally and that DH does too. But reading the book makes me go OHMYGOD, that is why he's like this, it's ALL US...

And while that's a bit depressing, I'll get over it, that's what parents have to do.

But two questions...

1. I like to think through things and look at evidence. Who challenges Alfie's approach? Who are his critics? What do they put to him?

1. If a family were to make a complete sea-change in approach, how would you do it? I already think me and the DH have different parenting styles: me a bit more Alfie-ish anyway, him quite strict and firm and wanting very clear boundaries and consquences. I can't see him going for it at all...

I haven't got to the bit about what to actually do and the issues with our eldest seem insurmountable sometimes - he can be very defiant. But presumably (Alfie says) some of that defiance is because we're probably too controlling...?

What do you do?

Fillyjonk, this is totally off topic but something about your name made me think you were Jilly Cooper. Well, not actually Jilly Cooper but of her ilk! Now I find you're a lefty with an interest in home ed!

Cue abrupt reworking of image

oh dear

you are the second person to have said that

I think moomins are pretty pro-he though

Thing is, carrying a coat for a child who won't put it on might be OK for a little one, but the 9yo example gives me pause. Carrying a coat for a 9yo would just be enabling bad behaviour - not particularly helpful in terms of bringing someone up to be sensible and know right from wrong. Would just teach them Mummy will pander to them IMO.

(Disclaimer - I don't have a 9yo and actually I do do the coat thing for ds, who is 4, if all else fails. However, I did play a rather large part in bringing up my youngest sister so I have recent experience of 9yos and stroppy teenagers.)

dd is 11 and ds is 8. If they don't wear the suggested coat they go cold. I'm not acting as an ambulatory coat peg because they are feeling bloody minded.

(disclaimer, we don't live in the arctic and this is not at time when doing long distance walks etc)

Getting cold and wet isn't going to harm or hurt them, and will teach them that choices have consequences

I agree that the "natural consequences" thing has severe limitations.

The "natural consequences" of not brushing your teeth will be cavities, and fillings, and gum disease and tooth loss. As adults we know that, and we wish to prevent our children getting cavities and fillings. So we ensure they brush their teeth.

The issue is about how we ensure they brush their teeth. Do we enforce brushing or do we coax them into brushing? Our ability to coax and encourage our children into brushing will be a function of our own negotiation skills, our child's ability to understand rational argument and our child's desire to cooperate, surely?

Our children very rarely end up in their bedrooms - the very mention of being banished from the company of the rest of the family normally gets them to behave better immediately. But they are all quite cooperative children.

so the jury's still out. If you already have co-operative children, AK works pretty well. If you have temperamental, stroppy kids then I guess the lesson is start doing AK when they're born, or else!

I'm going to keep working on it, but I can't see any way round either natural or imposed consequences for the 9yo, and for the littler ones, maybe I'll have a chance to be a bit more chilled (mind you, DS2 is pretty chilled and co-operative anyway)

And will be writing more notes (100x, I've been expanding my repertoire of fantasy stories to explain just how much I'd like ham/another chocolate biscuit/not to get dressed in the last few days and it works well: thanks!)

MB - well, I did start off with AK-type parenting from when she was born... so who knows whether she is naturally or nurturally cooperative?

I think until you've seen an uncooperative child in action from birth, you assume that it's all nurture. I think a huge part of it is nature.

My nephew had behaviour like MB's son, from a very, very early age. His parents are naturally on the AK end of the spectrum but my lovely nephew was, from about 2, spectacularly contrary, wilful, sometimesviolent. He would also push away affection.

Unless I had seen it with my own eyes, I would have said "Poor parenting". I now think he was born with a heightened emotional register and a strong will. He's growing out of the worst of it now (nearly six). Worst years were 2-5. Parents took a mixed approach - consequences in some areas, taking the pressure off in other areas. That and greater emotional maturity really helped. He's lovely to be with now, usually.

My conclusion - a bit of everything. I don't really trust formulaic solutions with rules (even though his aren't described as rules, they clearly are). Sometimes the AK approach is right. Sometimes you need a short sharp time out in the bedroom.

see I'm a right old hippy at heart (well, a bit authoritarian sometimes but I think I've learnt that myself as a parenting response to my child - see, they teach us a bit too, don't they?) and DS1 started with his 'terrible twos' at about 15 months 9was co-sleeping, waking at 4am, refusing to go back to sleep, and so launched into a lifetime of kicking and hitting us...) We began by trying to reason and ignore and be emotionally sensitive (he's overtired, he's stressed, he's hungry - how do we deal with all those things?) None of that made any difference. So when he was about 2.5 we moved onto slightly firmer responses, including removing him from the situation. But we had full on tantrums then and in the middle of the night or the supermarket, it was quite wearing. I had quite a few abandoned shoppping trolleys as I removed him from the situation.

we gradually got better at recognising triggers (hunger in particular) but we did find it difficult when he was tantrumming to know whether to ignore, try to calm him somehow (holding/hugging always ended up as restraint since he was so violent at these times, and I was never very comfortable with restraint) or setting up a reward/consequences system.

The latter has always been our last line of defence. sometimes, when we're stressed and wound up to our limits, we have shouted but we don't like this.

Since he has got older, it has been possible to hold sensible discussions with him at a different time to the tantrums, in which we give him options and ask him to come up with solutions. This works up to a point, when he has clear written down lists and expectations, he can often manage these himself 9so for example a list of what he has to do to get ready for school and a timescale with a watch/clock so he can manage it himself. that way we don't have to get involved and the conflict points arise less. it all sounds a bit anal but it is what we've had to do.

DS2 meanwhile has just never or rarely had a tantrum, only hits infrequently and responds well to distraction or humour or explanation of why it isn't kind or sensible to do certain things.

I know people often look at my eldest kid and think either 'bad parents' or 'she's created that situation by shouting/rules/being a controlling parent' etc but I genuinely think it has been a dynamic created between our inexperience and his temperament. It's hard though.

Alfie Kohn on my list of books of how not to do things, courtesy of my MSc in Applied Behaviour Analysis. He is by my bed,daring me to dip in.

AK book changed the way we parent

absolutely, but god it's hard sometimes to fight against the way we were parented.

The trouble is that people assume they are being consistent (whether they parent in AK way or another way) but in fact they are not 99% of time.Inconsistency is far more damaging than parenting styles.

I do think the book is very hard to apply to under 3s though.

What incredulises me re AK is that he is so pro nursery/school etc. I simply don't believe that anyone can care sucessfully for 20+ kids without using praise/criticism.

Inconsistency is human and is different from permissiveness. No one gets it 'right' 100 percent of time and who better to model flexibility according to circumstance or just plain old human fallibility to children than their parents?

I have not ever come across someone who claims to be consistent in their parenting style - only people that try to do their best for their children with the information, resources and instincts that they hold at any one time.

That's what I think, too, Squidler. Consistency sometimes equals inflexibility which is not good in my book as all situations are not black and white and so shouldn't be judged as if they are.

congratulations number6