OK, so I'm reading Alfie Kohn...

[Monkeybird]

...and it is very interesting. And is making me feel like SHITE. As if I've been a disaster area my whole parenting life (punishments/consequences: tick. rewards/bribes: tick...). And I can see the WHOLE logic of his argument and it all makes complete sense.

My oldest child is a PITA sometimes. I think I love him unconditionally and that DH does too. But reading the book makes me go OHMYGOD, that is why he's like this, it's ALL US...

And while that's a bit depressing, I'll get over it, that's what parents have to do.

But two questions...

1. I like to think through things and look at evidence. Who challenges Alfie's approach? Who are his critics? What do they put to him?

1. If a family were to make a complete sea-change in approach, how would you do it? I already think me and the DH have different parenting styles: me a bit more Alfie-ish anyway, him quite strict and firm and wanting very clear boundaries and consquences. I can't see him going for it at all...

I haven't got to the bit about what to actually do and the issues with our eldest seem insurmountable sometimes - he can be very defiant. But presumably (Alfie says) some of that defiance is because we're probably too controlling...?

What do you do?

Should add that my dentist told me that many parents let their children brush their own teeth too early. They don't have the dexterity to do it efficiently until 5ish.

So I try to do it. I don't push it too much because I don't want that to be a battle ground and I'm not sure whether 18 month olds with no sugar in their diet really need the full brush that we do for ourselves. But I do take charge of that.

And diet. What's his take on food? It's interesting because my daughter usually only has access to healthyish food so it's not a problem but at Easter, I was doing a lot more "that's enough, no more chocolate" than I normally would need to. I was quite aware that I was intervening more than normal but I'm not sure how else you would handle a chocolate covered toddler?

TBH, I think that having (much) older siblings helps when teaching her to do things like brush teeth, wash etc - she wants to emulate all four of us and do everything everyone else can do.

MandJ, the internalising discipline bit is interesting. Till yesterday, I would have entirely agreed with you. Now I'm less sure.

I can't remember exactly - and got too many kids to watch to run upstairs and get it to quote from - but he says something like: internalising discipline is no better either if it's done to win approval (which it often is).

No this is no good - I'm making it up as I go along and it deserves more complexity... will post later when I have book in front of me.

I'm with Teadrinker. We don't need experts who make us feel shite. There's quite enough 'I blame the parents' around as it is, without you doing it to yourself. And I'd like to meet this Alfie's kids, assuming he has any.

We didn't "do" eggs this Easter - we just bought one, very good one, to share between 7 of us .

On the teeth thing - I let her do it herself and then she has an "inspection" and then generally post inspection either I or her father help her finish them off.

We do the same for the boys (13, 10) so it's no big deal.

I also have a go at her teeth with an electric toothbrush every other day or so (basically every time she's up for it).

I haven't read Alfie Kohn.

But my opinion is that I want my child to know how behave appropriately according to circumstances because she understands that that is how to get on in the world, for herself.

So I have always brought her up expecting her to look around her and adopt behaviour appropriate to the setting, whatever that setting might be.

It's a bit too easy AuntEm, to assume his kids are awful. They might be. The book is an opinion, sure; but it is based on real research as far as I can tell.

I haven't read him but as a general rule, I think that parenting experts are best not taken as if they are delivering truths but only as if they are offering a point of view.

I've had a look at the articles on Alfie Kohn's website - as a preliminary to reading the book.

Very interesting that he has been translated into many languages but not French.

Do the French just all beat their children instead, Anna?

No - not physically (at least I don't think so ).

But there's an awful lot of ordering and punishment for non-compliance, very little in the way of a two-way dialogue to achieve appropriate behaviours...

Of course, it makes it much easier to delegate childcare (which the French are very hot on) if all you need to do to bring children up is get children to comply with a universal set of simplistic rules à la Supernanny.

ah have worked out the problem

I am onboard for the AK approach

sadly, my kids are not...mb I have no idea if it is harder generally or not to parent with a 5 year age gap. I do think you get more squabbles this way though and AK simply does not talk through how to deal with that.

yes FJ, there is something in that. I imagine the people who have very content, chilled, low maintenance kids either think they're geniuses at this parenting lark or just imagine all kids are like that.

I always find it quite funny when someone has a lovely quiet well-behaved DC1 and then loses the plot when hysterical, nutty DC2 comes along... Mine have been the other way round. So was surprised to find DS2 so chilled. Though am also a bit persuaded by the child ordering thing since parents are clearly different with each child.

It's all very complex...

lol dd2 SLEEPS

never before known in the jonk household

god if she had been our first...we would have been sooooooooooooooo smug

The way I understand it is that 'unconditional parenting' just means having a different way of approaching things than the standard reward/punishment discipline route.
I am a fan of AK and use his books as something to aim for. I don't always succeed but I do think that it works. I've found talking things through does get better long term results rather than saying 'because I said so'. The good thing is that the talking it through is in place once they reach the teens.
I wish I'd read his books or similar when I had my first child as I discovered that I tend to naturally lean towards his methods but thought I was doing it all wrong as so many people told me I should be doing things differently and letting my children 'know who's boss'.
There is so much contained in AKs book that I do think it has to be read to be understood.

My children don't respond to the more disciplinarian approach at all. Nor to rewards or punishment. The AK approach does not mean there are no consequences though.

FM - does your children's nursery also use an AK type approach?

My huge aversion to childcare in France stems from the authoritarian parenting here.

Interesting question Anna. Interestingly I have never felt there has been a huge clash between the nursery approach and my approach. However, as soon as my children started school I had a problem. I would very much like a bit more AK in schools. I hate the way my children suddenly came home and told me how they had gotten golden stars for good behaviour and who had the most gold stars in class for the week for example. Suddenly they got the idea that if they were good they could get something out of it. I feel like school has un-thought (is that a word?) what I have thought my children in their pre-school years with their massive focus on rewards and punishment. Of course its the easy approach and if you have 30 kids in class all used to getting a bloody gold star every time they smile, then its not easy.

my nursery uses time-outs and rewards (stickers etc). I didn't have a problem with it until I read the book!

My eldest child used to go to a nursery which used the High/Scope approach (though I never really understood it) but it was the only one I came across which actually had a philosophy as such - other than the Montessori types...

We moved though.

I think nurseries are even more about just managing and keeping busy than we are at home. Very difficult for them to apply principles. Unfortunately.

So, what consequences do AKers use?

How do you deal with violence?

I really liked the UP book and talked at great lengths to DH about it. Sadly, he's having none of it, although not a disciplinarian either, just thinks it's a bit bollocks (without having read it, maybe i didn't present it v well).

Ocassionally, DD1 tries my patience with her "why?" questioning and I go from gentle explanations to increasingly curter replies to sometimes ending with "that's the law, OK?". Where art though, Alfie, in times like that?

Thank you for your reply FM.

When my daughter started pre-school I learned (from other parents) quite quickly that the teacher does do time out as punishment for bad behaviour. The teacher is also very pro-active in keeping parents informed if their children behave badly at school.

Fortunately, my daughter seems to behave fine at school (whether it is her nature or our parenting, who knows?) so hasn't been punished and I haven't been called up. Since I observe my daughter in many and varied social settings, I imagine she manages to adapt to the requirements of school as it is.

No gold stars as yet (or, this being France, bad marks). But it will come and we will just have to deal with it.

Violence? We just say - no hitting in this house. Not allowed.

The boys have also been told that they must say this to their sister, and to tell her that they will not play with her unless she is gentle.

Anna, I agree. My children are also adjusting just fine. I think its me who cannot adjust LOL.

I believe that many of our generation (the parents of today) were brought up with strong boundaries and high expectations.

We are a tolerant, intelligent and responsible bunch so maybe that's what works.