OK, so I'm reading Alfie Kohn...

[Monkeybird]

...and it is very interesting. And is making me feel like SHITE. As if I've been a disaster area my whole parenting life (punishments/consequences: tick. rewards/bribes: tick...). And I can see the WHOLE logic of his argument and it all makes complete sense.

My oldest child is a PITA sometimes. I think I love him unconditionally and that DH does too. But reading the book makes me go OHMYGOD, that is why he's like this, it's ALL US...

And while that's a bit depressing, I'll get over it, that's what parents have to do.

But two questions...

1. I like to think through things and look at evidence. Who challenges Alfie's approach? Who are his critics? What do they put to him?

1. If a family were to make a complete sea-change in approach, how would you do it? I already think me and the DH have different parenting styles: me a bit more Alfie-ish anyway, him quite strict and firm and wanting very clear boundaries and consquences. I can't see him going for it at all...

I haven't got to the bit about what to actually do and the issues with our eldest seem insurmountable sometimes - he can be very defiant. But presumably (Alfie says) some of that defiance is because we're probably too controlling...?

What do you do?

Disclaimer - not read book!

Slur, your summary is interesting. I might read the book but [prejudging furiously] it doesn't sound like me.

Monkeybird, in your real life example, I'd be ignoring like a good'un with a timeout thrown in for good measure. Presume in Alfie world this means "withdrawing love".

I'm not sure I see how that is useful or drawn from real life. In real life (in grown up life) you do get love withdrawn from you if you behave badly - get drunk at a party and abuse your host and you won't get invited again. How do you help your children to learn that their actions have consequences if you don't use punishment?

And how does modelling good behaviour help? I tend not to throw a tantrum if only offered toast but toddlers do it anyway, despite the fact that they've never seen their parents do it.

Really, what you have to do is LIKE your child and show them that you LIKE them v. much and enjoy being with them and think they are great. Love is different, and also needs to be included. But like is better for the day to day.

Then you get to say 'eat the toast' and 'stop hitting your brother or I'm going to get cross' or 'Right. You can all go off now and sit in your bedrooms for ten minutes because you are driving me mad.'

And if they know you LIKE them hugely, I don't see why any of the above should matter.

That's my parenting book.

Like your children.

But at the same time, m&j, I wouldn't want the my adult child's motivation for not getting drunk at a party and abusing the host to be "if I do that I won't get invited again", as opposed to making his/her own value judgments about getting drunk and/or abusing people.

100x you talk a lot of sense

I also try to be really honest about REASONS

e.g. "Can I have some toast"
"No you can't, to be honest I can't be bothered to make it and clear up again and I'm feeling too lazy"

I give this reason A LOT

It gives the 5 year old room for negotation if she can see the REAL reason (I am lazy) - i.e. OK mummy can I make some toast if I clear it up?

yes you can

morningpaper and 100times I like your style.

Portandlemon I see your point and yes children need to understand the reasons why certain behaviours are not right. But they also need to understand that there is a conditional aspect to love.

We are all trained to say we love our children unconditionally. And we do. But there is also a conditional love that you have to deal with as an adult. Not necessarily from your parents but from the rest of the world.

And even parents sometimes...imagine your drug addicted 25 year old child in and out of prison and stealing from you again. They think they can come home again. Eventually you say no. You still love them but you are not going to offer them the usual evidence of your love (home, support, food etc).

Thinking about this because a friend of mine is doing a documentary about mums of prostitutes. A number of them in the prog are bringing up their daughters' drug addicted babies (born of punters) while their daughters are awol feeding their habits by working on the streets.

I too have read the book... and also found it frustrating that there wasn't very much of a "how to" section.

However, "I found How to Talk so Kids will Listen..." was like a "how to" of AK.

I only have one lo atm, and he is only one, so it might sound weird that I'm reading stuff like this.

But my parents' model for childrearing was incredibly strict bordering on abusive and I wanted to get some information about a different way of raising my child, as I didn't want to just "follow my instincts" in case my instincts were shaped by the way I was brought up.

I really do want to go the AK route especially as I found his arguments so compelling - he backs everything up with lots of evidence for example, which so few other books seem to do.

I will have a look at Smart Love too.

As for persuading other halves... my dh is quite the authoritarian. But as my ds' childminder is mil, I got her to read the book and she was convinced. And as dh only ever listens to her... he has agreed to read it too.

had to go be a parent (and anyway, couldn't MN, cos the power went off )

Over lunch, had an interesting discussion about it with DH. He promised to read the book (yeah right). But he's a criminologist so wasn't hard actually to couch the stuff in 'yeah, but does punishment actually work?'. He agrees that it doesn't actually (yet we do 'consequences' all the time) and he was certainly interested in the idea that rewards might bring problems too.

But the buck stops with him at flexibility - which he thinks of as 'damaging inconsistency'. Might be summat to do with us being a pair of flighty bastards. Well, he thinks I am in any case. I like to think of myself as thoughtful and responding to the situation. I didn't point out to him that despite our agreement that DS1 will NOT be taken to the shop after school, he still does it each time he does school run...

Pah. It would all be so much easier if I could control the world.

I read the How to Talk book years ago actually. But all I can remember from it is 'stick notes on things' for your 8 year old. Which I have done and was very effective.

Can someone summarise practical advice from it or am I gonna have to go and unpack some more boxes?

'bakers dozen guiding principles:

Be reflective
Reconsider your requests
Keep your eye on your long-term goals
Put the relationship first
Change how you see, not just how you act
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Be authentic
Talk less, ask more
Keep their ages in mind
Attribute to children the best possible motive consistent with the facts
Don't stick your no's in unnecessarily
Don't be rigid
Don't be in a hurry'

(pp119-120)

Oh yes, I love writing notes. I do this a lot, and now I get some back too. Also I like HTT because it stopped me talking too much and going on and on. You just say 'uhuh' quite a lot and 'Hmm.' Then you write a note.

m&j -I don't want my children to think my love for them is conditional, or even my liking for them is conditional. I want them to know it is unconditional and that I just like them because they are tip top - and that sometimes they do things which are irritating or inappropriate or just downright wrong and that's not okay.

Why should a wrong action or a clumsy thought or an impulsive decision end up with me not liking them? What's that got to do with it? The consequence is that they are off the computer for the week. That's that. But that's not very Alfie Kohn.

I must admit I have always found the divorcing the person from the action v. helpful in these matters.

Is that from AK or HTT?

sorry, Monkeybird, that's from Kohn, not HTT!

that was to WBP by the way

HTT is all : You Got The Smarts
How to say 'Uhuh'
Don't Say No
Fantasy silly talk
and
Don't offer solutions.

this childrearing thing is easier if brain was in gear

100times, I said I thought parents would be unconditional but the real world is conditional and therefore it's important at a certain point for children to understand that they won't always get unconditional love.

Sometimes they have to behave in order to fit in and get along with other people because that's what the real world is like. It's not fashionable to want a child who knows how to fit in but if they don't know how to accommodate others, how will they survive?

Obviously they need to understand why certain behaviours work better than others too but social approbation is a major part of why we all behave the way we do.

MandJ, you should read the book though. It offers quite a complex critique of Skinnerian behaviourism based on the idea that separating out behaviour from the person's needs and feelings is problematic.

I have some sympathy with your notion that real life is different from family life, but Kohn argues why would we want our kids to engage in a competitive, transactional at home just like the real world (among other things)?

MandJ, he does address that particular criticism in the book.

He says he thinks it's a bit like saying that the outside world is full of carcinogens and therefore we should introduce noxious gases at home so children get used to it early.

I think the idea is, they get unconditional love at home and the strength of character that gives them leaves them better equipped to deal with the problems outside the home.

"It would all be so much easier if I could control the world"

I have that response to my DH quite frequently too...

I have never heard of Alfie Kohn before this thread.

But, from reading the posts, I can now name my parenting style

Must read the book ASAP.

Yes. And just because they say they'll read the book does not, IMHO, mean that they ever ever will. They'll still think they are right, though.

skinnerian? I am so behind on this subject!

Will a quick google suffice?

Actually I do want to read the Kohn book - it really does sound interesting.

I'm just a bit resistant to some of the reasoning because I think unconditional love is a necessary but not sufficient condition for happiness. My personal list includes discipline with the ideal model being discipline at first imposed externally (and explained) and gradually internalised so that children can restrain/manage themselves and their behaviour. This, I'm guessing, is how we all learned to brush our teeth? At first you do it because you have to (and also because mummy tells you why and she makes it fun) and then when mummy is not there any more you still do it.

Well, I didn't teach my daughter to brush her teeth that way.

I did it by buying her a lovely toothbrush and toothpaste and leaving them with ours in the bathroom and doing a lot of talking about, reading about and modelling of tooth brushing.

Until she decided that she too wanted to brush her teeth.

Did you really? My daughter sees me do various things every day but doesn't feel a need to copy me all the time. She might do it sporadically but not the twice a day as required by dentists.

She started having her teeth brushed at 8 months, when she got teeth. She would not and could not have picked up a toothbrush then.

Even now at 18 mo she chews a toothbrush but doesn't know how to brush so I do that. We make it fun (ish) but it's still my choice, not hers.