Not taking a child on holiday

[Trixz8913]

Hiya, I just wanted to find out other people's views and experiences. I've got a 13 year old son, who's behaviour over the last 3 years has spiralled out of control. He's constantly being rude to teachers in school, putting himself and other students in danger, searing, refusing to do work, having to be removed from lessons, has been suspended due to behaviour 10 times this past academic year.
He's also frequently exhibiting anti social behavior when he's out and about with friends. Swearing at members of the public, vandalising property, threw around a homeless person's belongings, sneaking out early hours from his father's house (we're separated) and going to the local park starting fires, vaping.
He's bought the police to my home because he was reported for continuous anti social behaviour.
And when he is at home he's quite spiteful and vindictive to his younger sisters, threatening to punch her on occasion.
I have tried every method I know of to try and get his behaviour in check, done the usual taken his phone from him, not being allowed on the console, been grounded and not been allowed out. I've also tried positive enforcement, have given him pocket money when he has behaved well, given cuddles and told him I was proud of him when he went a day without getting trouble with school, have extended his time out with friends when he's been behaving, even have a sweet shop at home where all the kids earn stars for good behavior which they use as currency when they want to buy sweets from the "shop".
The school has tried one on one coaching with him, and he's been put into a cooking class that he enjoys to help break up his time table.

My question is this, the third to last time he was suspended he was told by one of the deputy heads that he was on his last warning from the school is his behaviour didn't improve and he kept getting suspended he would be expelled from the school.
We had a holiday coming up for the summer holidays and after weeks of his behaviour spiralling I had said to him, that if he got suspended again, or had as bad a day as the last (at the time) he wouldn't be going on the holiday, and since that time he's been reported on by the police, still swearing in school,l has been not turning up for lessons, has bunked off school, has snuck out and started a gire down the park where the police and fire had to be called, has stolen things from the home and has been suspended twice since.
So I had said he's not coming on holiday due to his behaviour. Do you think this was too harsh a punishment? Everyone close to me I have asked have said no it isn't, and that they themselves have done the same thing, but I keep getting grief and horrible messages from his father who's saying that I'm being cruel by not taking him, and that I'm saying I don't love him by not taking him.
So just wanted to get the opinion of other parents non bias parents on what they would do, or have done.

Thanks

You are absolutely doing the right thing if his dad wants a thug for a son let him deal with school and police on a daily basis tell them he lives there so call him/ go to his house .
Ima having the same issue with my 14 yo next step is he goes to live with his dad for a while so he realises exactly what it is I'm dealing with daily

Not harsh at all. Take his phone, send him to his father and remove all treats completely. This kid needs to know what no means and whatever you do, do not threaten and go back. Follow through, follow through, follow through.

Queue 10 million people screaming that he’s on the spectrum, needs pandering / specialist care.

Nah, some kids are dicks and his dad is enabling it.

Go on holiday, leave the kid with his dad and enjoy the peace .

It’s not harsh at all. If you allow him to come on holiday, you send the message that your words are meaningless and actions do not have consequences. And you send this message to his siblings as well as him. They will resent him for getting away with it. Be consistent, and prioritise the holiday with his siblings for their own well-being and mental health.

I probably sound radical but I'd go on holiday without him for a break. Then I'd come back and try to move areas so 1. He gets a fresh start at school. 2. He's split up from his friend who probably eggs him on. 3. In a new area where he knows no one he might wind his neck in and behave.

You are DEFINITELY doing the right thing by not taking him away with you.

he is at home he's quite spiteful and vindictive to his younger sisters, threatening to punch her on occasion.

FFS, you need to get out of this situation and take them with you.

Please read Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Koen if you can. Punishment and rewards are such a classic behavioural strategy, but they don’t address the root cause of a child’s behaviour, and they don’t lead to any lasting change.

Your kids dad should read it too, because his approach isn’t much better.

caringcareer...good idea, but probably won't work. as a teacher we get kids coming in and they start misbehaving - sure enough they have done this at every school they have been at.

Kids do well in school if they can. For whatever reason, your son is not able to do well. You’re doing all the right things, I’m in a similar situation and it’s the most difficult thing I’ve gone through. I don’t think you should exclude him from holiday, it may do more damage than good. He’s not waking up every morning thinking ‘how can I be really difficult today’. Somethings going on, you’ll figure it out eventually, keep at it x

What was his upbringing like? Before your ex left, was home a calm and stable place, or was there domestic violence/arguments etc? Did he have consistent boundaries? Is his behaviour a recent thing or has he always had behavioural issues?
Various factors could be causing the behaviour and it's difficult to advise without knowing the context and history.
Strangers on the internet also aren't the best people to help you fix this, you need specialist help.

The holiday is neither here nor there. Your son's behaviour is extreme, he's committing serious crimes that could kill people (my city is plagued by this sort of behaviour, teenagers have burned down a community centre and a school, lucky that no one was in the buildings at the time).
In a few years time he'll be an adult and will go to prison if he keeps on like this.
Standard methods like groundings and rewards aren't going to work if he's ignored them already.

Get him back living with you if your ex isn't doing anything about the behaviour. Push hard for involvement from SS and mental health services. You can't afford to be on a waiting list for 18 months. Really impress upon them that this is urgent. If you don't get timely help from state services (which you probably won't tbh) then go private. If you can't afford it look into taking out a loan.
Get him into some form of counselling or clinical psychologist help.
Also, activities where he'll be doing something positive and won't have as much time to go out and cause trouble - the cookery classes sound good, and some sort of sport to burn off energy.
Make it clear to him that he either engages with these things now, or further down the line the courts will make him engage with offender programmes, or worse, prison.

I know it might sound extreme now as he's only 13, but in a few years it might be too late. You've still got time if you act now.

I would feel really worried about your son's behaviour but I would focus my attention on trying to get to the underlying cause. Is it something to do with the crowd he is in or that he cannot cope with conventional school? Is he doing things to get attention? Is he any better in the holidays?

I would take a step back and try and think of something that could break the behaviour pattern that is not a conventional parental punishment or reward. Mabye checking if there is a more suitable curriculum he can do at school with more practical subjects and encouraging a worthwhile hobby for the evenings and weekends.

I would take him on holiday in the hope that his behaviour might improve in a different setting. I'd also agree that he might feel unloved and behave worse if he were left out.

Obviously his behaviour needs to change and you and your ex need to try and get on the same page to provide a consistent approach.

In response to what someone said above it is absolutely not the case that one can tell if a child is ND by 10 as there are lots of kids who seem to cope ok when they are younger and suddenly have significant difficulties at puberty or in their late teens.

Do not take him on holiday! I would be so disappointed if you decided to do that. Let him become his dad's problem. It may sound cruel, but I personally would never have unconditional love for my children. If they were disrespectful members of society and I had done everything I could and they still throw it back in my face then I would no longer support them. If I was in your situation I'd wash my hands of him. Vicious but that's my advice.

Your son sounds like he is way way past the making him miss the holiday to make him decide to behave. It would be extremely valid to not take him because you and the other children need a break from him. If you feel like this would be positive for the rest of you and there is someone you can leave him with, go for it. However you need to be looking at how to help him longer term too.

Don’t let him go. I got absolutely nothing for my 13th birthday because I continuously stole from my dad. Took £40 and didn’t get a birthday.

edited to add he actually took me to the police station and they gave me a talking to. Wasn’t until I was about 19/20 I got my shit together after not going to prison by the absolute skin of my teeth. I had no guidance and no help I was virtually on my own my mum left when I was a young child but just dropped us somewhere and didn’t come back. I have 2 kids myself now and do my damn best that they don’t go down the paths I did.

Once you’ve said something you must stick to it.

Agree with those who say stick by him and take him on holiday. He is clearly upset about something that needs to be resolved. Have faith that he will come out of the other side with your help. My nephew was similar, eg stole his mother’s car on his 19th birthday, wrote it off with friends inside. Just graduated with a 2:1. His parents made it clear his behaviour was unacceptable and had sanctions etc but for a long time didn’t seem to be working. Eventually he grew up.

He needs a couple of weeks in a PRU - they're no fun - and then to be told that if he keeps up this behaviour, this is where he will end up permanently when (not if) the school expels him. At the moment, everything is theoretical; the real consequences haven't yet appeared and his father is certainly no help. There is no consistency - you're trying to keep everything on the rails and his father lets him do what he wants.

Sometimes a nasty shock is the only way forward - unless he wants to find himself in Feltham one day,

At this point it doesn't matter . You have already told him no holiday . You can't go back on your word and if you do then you will make him never take you seriously

I agree, he needs professional help ASAP.

I’m assuming it will be Dad as she says they are separated. I suspect that is the real reason she is getting those messages from Dad too.

You are doing the right thing. Your other children deserve a break as well. If his dad wants to handle him let him live.

Some kids are just bad.

You cannot be soft.

Last chance or send him to a special place.

It’s not too harsh no. Why should everyone else suffer a bad experience for one thing.

i do think you need help beyond what’s currently happening as there must be something driving this behaviour.

you could contact social services and ask for their support. This is extreme behaviour and I do think you need some sort of intervention with professionals who are experienced.

I think take him with you. DS3 is neurodiverse and often a nightmare at home - can't leave him in room alone with DS4. But on holiday now away from playstation, stresses of normal life and getting some sun and DS4 has been a dream. Maybe it's the the reset your DS needs especially if you can spend some time alone with just him (appreciate that may not be possible).