Not taking a child on holiday

[Trixz8913]

Hiya, I just wanted to find out other people's views and experiences. I've got a 13 year old son, who's behaviour over the last 3 years has spiralled out of control. He's constantly being rude to teachers in school, putting himself and other students in danger, searing, refusing to do work, having to be removed from lessons, has been suspended due to behaviour 10 times this past academic year.
He's also frequently exhibiting anti social behavior when he's out and about with friends. Swearing at members of the public, vandalising property, threw around a homeless person's belongings, sneaking out early hours from his father's house (we're separated) and going to the local park starting fires, vaping.
He's bought the police to my home because he was reported for continuous anti social behaviour.
And when he is at home he's quite spiteful and vindictive to his younger sisters, threatening to punch her on occasion.
I have tried every method I know of to try and get his behaviour in check, done the usual taken his phone from him, not being allowed on the console, been grounded and not been allowed out. I've also tried positive enforcement, have given him pocket money when he has behaved well, given cuddles and told him I was proud of him when he went a day without getting trouble with school, have extended his time out with friends when he's been behaving, even have a sweet shop at home where all the kids earn stars for good behavior which they use as currency when they want to buy sweets from the "shop".
The school has tried one on one coaching with him, and he's been put into a cooking class that he enjoys to help break up his time table.

My question is this, the third to last time he was suspended he was told by one of the deputy heads that he was on his last warning from the school is his behaviour didn't improve and he kept getting suspended he would be expelled from the school.
We had a holiday coming up for the summer holidays and after weeks of his behaviour spiralling I had said to him, that if he got suspended again, or had as bad a day as the last (at the time) he wouldn't be going on the holiday, and since that time he's been reported on by the police, still swearing in school,l has been not turning up for lessons, has bunked off school, has snuck out and started a gire down the park where the police and fire had to be called, has stolen things from the home and has been suspended twice since.
So I had said he's not coming on holiday due to his behaviour. Do you think this was too harsh a punishment? Everyone close to me I have asked have said no it isn't, and that they themselves have done the same thing, but I keep getting grief and horrible messages from his father who's saying that I'm being cruel by not taking him, and that I'm saying I don't love him by not taking him.
So just wanted to get the opinion of other parents non bias parents on what they would do, or have done.

Thanks

I think you should stick to your word and not allow him on the holiday.

Thank you all for your feedback

I agree with Dolly, you can't punish your son for not being able to cope in mainstream school. If he's ADD or ADHD or both, you are continually setting him up to fail. You'll end up with a very poorly child with autistic burnout if you aren't careful. Remove him from school and don't exclude him from the holiday.

Go on holiday without him. It doesn't sound like it would be much of a holiday for you or his sibling if he came with you.

I think go on the holiday without him and when you come seek a lot more support. Charities the support ND teens, I know you are on a pathway but assume that yes. Waitlist for therapy which I’m sorry to say he may refuse to do, and then do a deep dive into negotiation and calming situation techniques which I can’t imagine aren’t on YouTube somewhere.
And dont take everyone’s advice because they will all come from different methodologies. What I believe is the shouting doesn’t help, and you just both get better at it over the years. If you find what you think is a technique a bit radical from the ‘take his PlayStation away’ that works on non ND kids, look at it, then maybe take a deep breath and commit. Once you start taking everything away you have given your power away with these kids. They think that’s all you offer.

And learn about whatever YouTube or games or shoes or whatever it is they aspire for. Doesn’t matter what it is they aspire to, if it’s to be a YouTube gamer, it’s still an ambition. Ambition is good.
I got a really good business lesson off my son once about marketing when he explained why he needed some crap. It turned into him explaining how these guys brand and he still points it out to me, how all of it ties together. He’s talking, more importantly he’s explaining to ME. He has the knowledge

Has he fallen in with a bad crowd do you think, or is he the instigator?
What was he like as a child?

Perhaps the holiday wouldn't appeal to him anyway, if he'd just be with you and sisters. Where's the holiday to?

It sounds to me that the father is trying to guilt trip you into bringing your son, because the alternative is that his father will have him he while you are on holiday and have to manage his behaviour himself I'm assuming?

I have an ex partner like this, every time I try to lay down the law, follow through on consequences for poor behaviour or use any kind of rules in the house (no eating on the sofa, no throwing food) he would undermine me and allow our DD to do whatever I was trying to stop. Then I'd be told her behaviour is all my fault, for using consequences! He wants to be Disney dad, who lets her have everything she wants because he's terrified of having to say no to her. I wonder if your son's father is similar.

Don't take him on holiday, more for the fact his siblings will be able to relax without him around.
I think being expelled from his current school might not be the worst thing to happen. It is clear the school or you cannot help this child. He needs a different, specific approach. In a different school, equipped to deal with some of his behaviour and underlying emotional and developmental issues. Can you investigate if there is a good specialist he would attend after being expelled? Because you want to find that school and make sure that's where he will be going. Start preparing now because he will be expelled and you want the best outcome for him from that point onwards.
If he remains in this current state, in 2 years time he will be involved with knives and, possibly, drugs. The older he gets, the harder will be to find specialist support.

His dad seems to be more interested in passing the boy back to you. He is not at all interested in supporting/helping his own son.

Did he enjoy the cooking classes? Could you enrol him on an evening cookery course at your local college? The type that are a couple of months long and he attends once a week?
Is there any hobby/ interest that he has?
Could you divert his spare time towards that? Basically take him off the streets away from his current friendship group as much as possible, whilst giving him something he would engage with.

Take your other children away for a well deserved break where you can all relax.
I would be very concerned taking him out of the country based on his current behaviour, what happens if he goes off one day and doesn’t return or starts fires or breaks things? In another country there would potentially be consequences that are completely out of your control. It’s unsafe for him.

It sounds like a very difficult and stressful situation. I am familiar with SEN and all the hoops you have to jump through and long waiting lists.
Have you heard of Pathological Demand Avoidance? It could be that he has this profile and in which case it needs a completely different approach to parenting. Have a look at the PDA society website. I would say that most of the time with a child struggling this much you need to pull them closer not push away. Rewards and punishment don’t work with this profile that’s what made me think it could be a possibility.
I wouldn’t leave him out of the family holiday as it will break your relationship down further and make him feel even more insecure. I understand why others are saying that you need to stick to it but please read about this profile first and see if it fits. These kids need to have very low demand environments and are very challenging to parent.
I hope you can all get the help you need soon.

@Trixz8913 I think you have to follow through with the consequence. His Dad is the problem and that’s where he lives - Dad will either step up at some point, or won’t. But you stick with your rules and show that there are consequences.

Have you tried talking to him and offering love and support rather than disappointment and punishment? Kids behave “badly” for a reason. Find the problem and fix it, rather than punishing him for what you’re seeing on the surface. Poor kid 😞

Get him into anger therapy or a marital art. He is displaying whatever is going on with him emotionally as anger/aggression and this is very bad for him and everyone around him. The school is limited to what it can do so you have to figure things out until you understand what the root cause is. Until any qualified specialist is able to get to the root cause of his difficulty and what he is going through you won't stop the behaviour.

IMO he has been left a long time 3 years to further ingrain habits and with an inconsistent approach, school, punishment, withrawal of privileges and then reward for good behaviour. One consistent approach usually works better with kids, of any kind. The most damaging thing I have observed over 35 years working with parents and families is that they take a throw everythign at it approach and the child doesn't know what to expect from any of it.

A lot of kids who go through challenges in teens, it starts as resistence to rules and trying to be their own person. Your son is seeking attention in some way or another but you don't know why or for what so I always tell parents take an honest look at how you do things first. See if there are patterns that have developed, keep a diary about things that happened and your response because its easier then to understand if you have changed as well and how.

Even if his behaviour is bad, which it is, the reassurance that comes from consistency that he can judge your reaction is critical for him learning to manage his own behaviour. Logically if you are him and one time he does something he gets (a) response and another time (b) response I'm sure you can understand it is destabilizing and nobody wants to live their live in a "what if" loop. Certainty is what breed confidence in people and that comes from consistency.

You need a collaborative approach with all parties (school, family, you, etc) clearly stating up front the "rules" of play if you like so that he knows the consequences of his actions before he takes them and is therefore not surprised by any response. In addition it cuts the "attention seeking" part from the outraged responses he is currently enjoying because different things happen in different scenarios. Without attention for negative behaviour or with consistent consequences, children can start to self-regulate what they do and eventually over time learn to talk to you instead of lashing out. He has everyone in fear and that is getting him attention.

Eventually the behaviour should begin to adjust. Its a slog and its hard, and you are clearly going through it, but I'd examine your own responses, and IMHO unconditional love and consistent patient responses with a very regulated reaction e.g. not just one day he is being good so he is rewarded and then you get busy - something comes up so he craves attention and gets the desired negative response. For kids, negative or positive attention is irrelevant its just attention - one way or another and whichever gets him the most, he will keep doing.

I've never seen success from anything else other than consistency 100%. Which means that using the withdrawal of the holiday to him is a 100% message that you only want him around when he performs the way you like or want. This will cause further resistance and playing up will escalate. It's your choice but it is an expected reaction from your son.

Try and take a perspective from his side and I'm not saying condone his behaviour but if you were him and the one thing you were looking forward to is taken away what would your reaction be? He doesn't have the emotional equipment to manage his responses - so he needs to be taught this. That's why I suggested martial arts. They are highly disciplined as well as being an outlet for built up energy which manifests badly in him. If he bonds with any organisation that teaches him that controlling himself is powerful, things will slowly change but you have to support this positively in the knowledge that setbacks will keep coming hard and fast until the new learning has become unconscious and that takes time but keep going!

I'm not saying tolerate danger in your home and fear in your other kids, but so far in his mind the benefit of behaving well is way less than what he gains out of not doing so. He needs to see you are still interested in helping him however he tests you and that you have not "given up" or told him that you have.

Something he has not learned yet to control is exasperating his behaviour, making him do these things, so starting with a how can we get to the why, (which you will need help doing as he is unlikely to share anyting in a resistant state), is better than penalising IMHO. Good luck.

This is a really great book I recommend to all parents of boys (affiliate link) https://amzn.to/3WmAzMD

I think this is a big bit of the problem it's dad. Dad seems to be directly contradicting you and enabling this behaviour do ds knows he can get away with it with 1 parent. Leave him and as tough as it is,once dad's had a few weeks in September of suspensions etc he'll soon get the message he needs to be on the same page. It's harsh but don't let dad have the fun of the summer holidays with dss and then cart him back to you in September to deal with the daily shit. Let him experience that bit too for a good while.

His life already sounds miserable (a happy child would not behave that way) so I’m not sure removing any small bit of pleasure from him now is the answer.

I have two DC with SEN, albeit much younger and as PPs have said, normal parenting advice is not always the way to go. I really don't think isolating him from your family unit will help. A week away from his Dad and friends, having quality time with you and his siblings could really help him.

Absolutely not would he be coming with me. Bad behaviour isn’t rewarded with a holiday. He has to understand all actions have consequences and if he keeps it up he’ll have an even worse punishment with the law. You’ve got other children to think about, would taking him mean they won’t have an enjoyable time due to possible unruly behaviour? Will it be relaxing for you having to constantly worry if he’s behaving himself? A holiday is meant to be time away from the norm, not taking the issue with you. You gave him a warning and he didn’t take any heed. Maybe this will be a lesson learnt for him.

Unfortunately his dad hasn't ever been involved with his schooling, and task a quite laid back approach to his behaviour, in as much as there are never really any consequences to it. Even if he's had a bad day at school where he's been verbally abusive and refusing to do his work, his dad will still let him go out.

Here is your problem, OP. Your son needs a father, and one who will impose boundaries and enforce them. I would say that your son is acting out the problems in the wider family unit, which will be hellish for him and for you. Family therapy as soon as possible, if you can. I would also be thinking seriously about your relationship with your husband.

Ex husband.

I think he should go. A change of scenery might be the reset he's crying out for.

I’m in two minds. On the one hand, if you were worried he wouldn’t behave on the holiday and potentially spoil it for everyone else, then yes I think it was fair you didn’t take him, especially if you gave him fair warning and said that this was the reason. Looked at from this perspective it’s not a punishment as such, although no doubt he would see it that way.
If it was done purely as punishment, then I’m not sure it was the best way to go. I know people will roll their eyes and say this is ‘soft’, too liberal etc etc, but kids like this need connection and relationships. Not allowing him to go could just further isolate him from you and his siblings, when he needs more supportive people around him not less. It could reinforce in his mind that he is unlovable and unwanted - of course this isn’t true but it’s how he might feel. A change of scenery might have served to give you all a chance to have fun and improve relationships and feel closer which might have a positive impact on him.
It’s also not a consequence that has necessarily has immediate meaning to him in the way consequences for poor behaviour should. In the way that removing pocket money or grounding might. Also, you clearly feel something else might be going on here like ADHD, so by that logic it follows he might not have a lot of control over what he is doing so it seems unfair to punish him in this way.
Totally get why you would do this. Obviously you have more than just him to think of and need to consider other family members as well. I hope things get better soon.

Op you say he lives with Dad now? Are his siblings with you or him? How long has he lived there and why?
You need to carry through with the consequences but you both need to delve deeper into this behaviour

I wouldn't take him. Be consistent with your sanctions.

The other kids need a break too. But .. when yiu get back lots of ciddies. Say how you missed him
Ask him how you can help him

Try to come up with a list of strategies together

I'd take him. I think shazzak is right in what she's saying.
You haven't said how old the siblings are but I think you need some time one in one with him. Whether you can achieve that on holiday by just putting the younger ones to bed and playing games or chatting? Or if possible taking a sitter so he can be treated more like the young adult he's becoming.
I wish I had my chance again with my daughter to understand her instead of punishing her for her behaviour. Good luck x

Ah, somehow missed that. Thank you for nudging, YourWildAmberSloth. That makes it more difficult, but my suggestion remains the same - with perhaps just you and your son, OP.