Do you do things/activities as a family all together?

[staryeyed]

If so what do you do and how old are your children?

The do get choice in the morning, what b'fast cereal, or would they prefer toast!

Quite!

And I wonder what these cooperative, consensual parents do when their child is in trouble. E.g if your child is about to step off a pavement, or touch a hot oven, or pick up a piece of broken glass do you say, 'Now darling what would be the consequences if you walked in front of that car? Would you still like to do it or do you think it would be a good idea to wait and hold my hand?'

One think I heard some expert (can't remember which one it was) say once was, 'You need to be sure that if you shout "stop" to your child that they will do it for their own safety.' I really believe that's true. I need to know that my children respect my authority and are able to follow rules until they are able to work out what's sensible for themselves (and no a 3 year old can't; this is a long, steep learning process)

We eat together as a family at weekends
We go to the cinema together
We go on Expeditions (London Eye, Houses of Parliament, animal things, skidome, day trips)
We play board and card games together (Harry Potter Scene It is the current fave)
We go swimming together sometimes
We go to tennis together - some play others ferry and drink

You wouldn't be trying to get this thread back on track would you Quattrocentro?

Come to think of it I teach a lot of students who must have come from the same school of parenting as Anna e.g.

me: Put your mobile phone away please
Student: Why?
Me: You need to concentrate in class and it's the college rule that you keep your phones switched off
Student: But so and so's had her phone on too [this is student's best friend BTW but loyalty has passed this student by in the need to consider what's in it for him before making any decision]
Me: Put your mobile phone away now or I'll refer you to x senior teacher
Student: So? I was only texting my friend anyway. What's wrong with that? I don't see why I can't have my phone on. This lesson's boring anyway. I only picked it because I didn't know what else to do and I can text and listen at the same time.

And so on.

Oh yes, consesus and negotiation. How lovely. Oh, but your kids would never behave like that would they Anna? And why is that again?

Just had a look at Dr Sears and actually under his top 10 discipline principles there's nothing I'd disagree with

e.g. 'Your discipline techniques will be different at each stage because your child's needs change. A temper tantrum in a two-year-old calls for a different response than it does in an eight-year-old. '

'Many conflicts arise when parents expect children to think and behave like adults. '

'Establish rules, but at the same time create conditions that make the rules easier to follow. Children need boundaries. They won't thrive or survive without limits; neither will their parents. To learn about their environment, toddlers must explore and be energetic. That's their job. Environmental control is the parents' job. This involves both setting wise limits and providing structure, which means creating an atmosphere in the home that makes these limits easier to respect. The limit-setting part of disciplining a toddler is to say "no" to an exploring child who is headed for trouble; the structure part is to childproof the home to provide busy minds and bodies a safe place to play and learn. '

In fact, pretty much what I've been saying...

Fivecandles - Wouldn't you love to say 'BECAUSE I'M IN CHARGE AND I SAID SO' .

In my experience it works as well as it should taking into account age appropriate behaviour.

I'm not permissive and lazy and if I shout stop, which I have done as ds1 is a runner, they do stop. I'm not saying my children listen to every word I say, they don't, they are normal kids who have tantrums now and again etc.

I try my best to talk with them though and deal with things without time-out and punishments etc. I also agree that their brians aren't developed enough and that's why I don't do punishments, they just don't see why they are being punished and concentrate on the punishment only.

If my dc's (odler two) do something wrong they will always apologise because they feel remorse not because they have learnt to do it rote.

We all do our best and for me this way is good. I've read lots of dr sears and if you read some more there is more to it than the quotes you selected.

Nothing to disagree with Jodie.

Of course, distraction and discussion and keeping routines etc to prevent difficult behaviour are preferable to shouting after the event.

All I'm saying is that sometimes you have to be firm and discussion is not appropriate.

A good example:

Yesterday, I gave dd2 (aged 3) a small chocolate bunny. She wanted another. I explained I was going to give her another - chocolate is a treat and too much of it is bad for us. She wailed and screeched and pestered. I firmly said she couldn't have any more. She continued to wail and screech and pester. I ignored her and deliberately moved away and put some dishes away while she continued to perform and after a while I distracted her with something her sister was doing.

If I had engaged in a long discussion with her at that point it would have simply given her the message that kicking up an enormous fuss gets attention and then reinforced her hissy fit. But also she's 3 - when you're 3 and you want chocolate anything else is fairly irrelevant. As it was the whole thing lasted a couple of minutes and was then forgotten.

In family life there are loads of incidents like this all the time. Indulging your children mid-tantrum either by giving in or by having a long discussion (using adult concepts) is fool hardy and encourages selfish, spoilt behaviour.

If anyone tells me that this sort of thing doesn't happen in their family they're lying or their children are not normal. In some families (esp where parents work hard to establish rules, prevent their kids getting over-tired etc and are good at distraction tactics) it is rare but it is a normal part of child development to have tantrums, disobey your parents etc. It is not helpful for parents to pretend that their kids are always perfectly behaved at all times and this makes other parents less confident. Parents have to have the confidence to say no to their children, to be firm, to have rules. They are in authority. Their children are children and not adults and not their friends.

Teachers like MB and I see the consequences of parents who mean well but whose over indulgence and refusal to establish boundaries and stick to them spoils their children to the extent that they are difficult to teach, selfish and attention grabbing. This is very sad not only for the kids and their parents but for everyone else who comes into contact with them. And what may be considered charming in a 3 year old to a parent is anything but to a teacher dealing with a bolshy 13 year old.

Last year one of my friends was visiting. They wasted spent 20 minutes reasoning and cajoling with their 2yo on why he had to sit in his car seat before they could drive away. A 2yo! I just wanted to grab the brat the child, put him in the seat and tell him, "tough, you are sitting in your car seat, end of discussion".

He will be one of those children at school who constantly questions everything that he is asked to do by the teachers but no doubt the parents will say that he is G&T and that the school is not stretching him.

fivecandles - you have consistently described your approach to children as believing that their bad behaviour is inevitable and heavy-duty parental control a necessity, as a preventative measure as much as anything.

So of course your children behave badly (and you have given colourful examples) and of course you have to lay down the law.

I assume that children want to behave well and be nice to others. And guess what? They pretty much always do.

And you are quite wrong on the talking thing. Little, pre-verbal children can understand rational arguments providing that they are age appropriate, and their brains develop impulse control far better and faster through use of calm, patient, rational discussion than the brutalising techniques you describe.

Now as a teacher you will come across all kinds of children, many of whom will have had pretty low-grade parenting. So you will use techniques appropriate to the classroom you have in front of you (you have to get your job done after all, and that's fine). But the techniques you use as a teacher to control children who have received low-grade parenting should not be the same as the ones used by an informed parent bringing up a baby/toddler.

"brutalising techniques"

are there brutalising techniques on here?

Gosh I must read the whole thread now !

Can I just ask?
Given that my 11 year old cannot process patient and rational discussion , does that mean I am per se 'brutalising' him by having to simply say no sometimes - with no explanation or discussion?

Actually Anna I don't really think about 'bad behaviour'. What I'm talking about is NORMAL CHILDHOOD DEVELOPMENT. I don't think that a 3 year old asking for a second chocolate bunny rabbit is particularly unusual or 'naughty' at all. I think her whining when she is refused is also fairly normal on the grand scale of things.

I don't think that saying no to your child is 'heavy-duty parental control' nor have I eer mentioned any technique that could possibly be described as 'brutalising'. In fact, your emotive language to describe saying no to your child and not pandering to a child's selfish or irrational demands is bonkers and laughable or else quite disturbing.

And how can you declare yourself to be more knowledgeable about the development of childrn's brains than eminent clinical child psychologists. Again, this is laughable.

Perhaps you have not witnessed your child having a tantrum Anna (and I actually think this is really quite unlkely) because you always give in. And perhaps when you see your child nodding her head as you 'discuss' and 'negotiate' what you are actually witnessing is her wrapping you round her little finger becuase she is getting attention and learning how to manipulate.

There is nothing wrong with saying no to a child. Your child WILL learn that she will not get her own way all the time and that not everyone will pander to her whims and cajole, negotiate and play games with her to make sure she find every aspect of life fun. What a shame for her and for everyone else that comes into contact with her that her own parents have not taught her this essential infrmation and how to deal with it.

fivecandles - look, if you believe that force and conflict and whining and screeching and all the other examples you give of your family life are inevitable - they will be.

I'm just saying - they aren't. If everyone in a family treats everyone else calmly and with respect (which of course includes provision for age appropriate basic needs), that is the role model children grow up with. Children don't abuse the system because they don't see others abusing it. Normal, balanced children want their parents' approval, and if the behaviours required to gain that approval are modelled and straightforward, children behave well.

'I assume that children want to behave well and be nice to others. And guess what? They pretty much always do.'

This is hilarious it really is. Where are these Stepford children? They actually sound quite spooky. In fact, Health Visitors and psychologists often say that they find quiet, submissive children more worrying that kids who throw tantrums because this is not normal behaviour for children.

I used to live with a psychologist who used to keep repeating, 'it is wrong to see children as mini adults. They are not. They are not guided by adult concepts and what we would consider to be rational'.

'Little, pre-verbal children can understand rational arguments providing that they are age appropriate, and their brains develop impulse control far better and faster through use of calm, patient, rational discussion than the brutalising techniques you describe.'

This is absolute b***s Do you honestly believe that saying no to a child and ignoring a tantrum is 'brutalising'????

'Now as a teacher you will come across all kinds of children, many of whom will have had pretty low-grade parenting.'

Yes, and I'd say amongst the worst is the sort you describe where the parent doesn't know how or doesn't think it's their job to be in authority and spoils their children dreadfully. BEcause this sort of parenting produces kids who think that life should all be fun, eveything should be given to them on a plate, tehy have the right to question evry decision and rule regardless of how much this disrupts others' education and happiness.

'So you will use techniques appropriate to the classroom you have in front of you (you have to get your job done after all, and that's fine). But the techniques you use as a teacher to control children who have received low-grade parenting should not be the same as the ones used by an informed parent bringing up a baby/toddler.'

Actually, and I'm sure MB will back me up here, there are many similarities between good parenting and good teaching in terms of managing behaviour. Highlight the positve, create routines and boundareis which are clear and mean that opportunities for bad behavioru are minimised. Be firm but fair. NEver ever give in to spoilt and selfish behaviour etc etc.
'

fivecandles - are you enjoying your tantrum?

Tantrums, whining and screeching ARE normal. As I've said perhaps the reason they don't happen much in your hosue is because you don't say no and you do pander to your children's selfish demands.

I am quite calm and quite respectful thanks. But I also do not spoil my children.

You cannot assume that children make the decisions that they do for rational, adult like reasons (e.g. if your dd refuses to go on a family walk this is because she is tired) that realyl shows an incredible ignorance about children which is really quite worrying. E.g. dd1 used to occasionalyl say that she didn't want ot go to ballet or swimming etc but the second she got there she loved it and couldn't wait to go again. Equally there are many children who refuse food before even tasting it or even knowing what it is. This is nothing to do with the children not liking the food and everything to do with being suspicious of something unfamiliar. My dd used to do it occasionally and because we never ever pandered to it she often went on to eat the whole plate and ask for seconds. And is an amazingly good eater now. It's a mistake to think you can rationalise children's behaviour all the time. And it's a mistake to give in to them.

I'm not talking about 'force' or 'brutality' and I really do find it disturbing that you assume that any sort of parenting that isn't about entirely pandering to the child must therefore be forceful and brutal. I'm just talking about having the confidence to be the adult and be in charge.

Ah, right mildmannered, I'm building up a picture of a woman who really doesn't know very much about children at all. I can only repeat that I pity this child's future teachers and friends if her mother thinks that to say no to her would be an act of brutality!

Or saying "OK, we'll all do what x wants today and we'll do what you want tomorrow" is low grade parenting.

Actually, I've just remembered, it's parenting like mine that caused your dp's previous marriage to break up, isn't it, Anna? Id forgotten that!

Yup, bossy women who want everything their way = bad news

I don't want to get at you Anna, because I agree with much that you have to say. I also see the other side too. I think you have been blessed with three children who are particularly amenable, compatible etc.

The question I have for you is how does your DD react to having to do something that she doesn't want to do - something that is non-negotiable. Does she still negotiate, or does she understand when time has run its course and she needs to just buckle down and do as she is told.

I have had a couple of pupils (teenagers) from lovely, caring, involved, middleclass families, who have obviously brought their children up to negotiate, pick between informed choices etc. - and they could be a bit of a nightmare if I want them to do something they don't want to do. Everything was an endless 'argument' from my view, and it usually ended with me raising the ante in some way.

They didn't seem to pick up on cues that they had gone too far, which I always felt was rather worrying. I think they hid behind the fact that their parents would support them unconditionally. I am positive that these children were an absolute delight at home, in company, trumped only by the Von Trapp and Stepford children.

I think that negotiating is something that you should only take so far. It will do them no good when they start their first graduate job at the bottom of the heap - they have to learn to brown-nose and please other people pretty much for the sake of it. We shortchange our children if we only have one type of cooperative style.

Could you point me to anywhere where I have said I want everything my way? Because I've obviously expressed myself incredibly badly if that's how I came across in this debate!

ScienceTeacher - the thing is, the non-negotiables are not a big deal. For example, sometimes in the morning she says she doesn't want to go to school, tells me she doesn't like it etc. I tell her that she has to go (and that her brothers go) and just carry on getting ready and we get there and occasionally she sheds a little tear and asks for a cuddle before going in (which she gets) and then she goes off and it's OK. I have never done anything but turn my back and walk away and left her at school, even on a "bad" day, and she knows that. So - I am firm, but we never descend into screeching or whining or tantrums or refusals. I never lose it with her, either.

Later on in the day, or at some other point, whenever the time feels right, we have a conversation about school so that I can find out whether something particular is really bothering her, which of her teachers/TAs she likes/doesn't like, which of the children she likes/doesn't like, etc etc. So I have built up quite a picture over time of what goes on, who likes whom etc and follow the changes.

Obviously, there are lots of things in life that are non-negotiable, but as a child you need to be brought to the understanding that they are non-negotiable for yourself, not just have the non-negotiables forced upon you with no explanation of why these things are so. And parents, IMVHO, have a duty not to present as non-negotiable unilateral decisions on their behalf those things in life that really ought to be decided jointly between parent and child. School is non-negotiable; school rules are non-negotiable. Bedtime is negotiable. Etc. Working out where you should have a say and where you don't have a say in life is a very difficult task indeed.