Do you do things/activities as a family all together?

[staryeyed]

If so what do you do and how old are your children?

That all makes sense, Anna, and I'm sure it's what most of us do.

I certainly agree with you that there is no point in insisting on things that aren't actually important. I remember when DS1 went through a wellie phase, where he had to wear them all day every day. I didn't approve, but it wasn't actually a big deal, and if it made him happy...

Oh God, my daughter only wore wellies for the whole of last winter. She barely ever got dressed for about six months. Then would never ever wear a skirt or dress.

Now she only wants to wear a skirt, tights and ballet shoes. That's fine. She can do whatever she pleases as long as she meets school uniform requirements.

And if the school uniform requirements specifically excluded ballet shoes..........??????

(This is not hypothetical, by the way, dd's school did!)

They are allowed to wear whatever style and colour of shoes, scarf, hat and gloves they want .

Oh - I realize where I've been going wrong. You need to cheese a school that matches your dc's sartorial requirements!

Presumably you change schools when her tastes change?! {grin}

Yes. Of course. School to match the child every time .

I've done my best so far but actually there isn't that much choice of school here in Paris...

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. I think, as I suspected, you and your children are from the same species as the rest of us after all. It's just that, in this debate you like to present yourself as different. As in, you have things that are 'non-negotiable' whereas we are 'bossy' and 'want everything our own way'. So also, your daughter 'says she doesn't want to go to school, tells me she doesn't like it etc.'
but this is very different from 'whining or screeching or tantrums or refusals' even when she 'sheds a little tear'

When you 'tell her that she has to go (and that her brothers go) and just carry on getting ready' and are 'firm' that's ok but when we try out similar tactics we are being 'brutal' and using 'low grade parenting'.

When you say, you 'never lose it with her' also you are implying that the rest of us do. I never ever 'lose it' with my children and am, like you, firm and fair.

Can I make a suggestion Anna? Before you present you, your children and your parenting tactics as perfect and everyone else's as just plain wrong you actually make sure you're very clear what it is you're talking about.

If, as I say, it sounds like my children have more tantrums than yours then I'm pretty sure that's because I don't feel like I am discredited or any the worse a parent for having normal children. It's also probably because I am less likely to give in to their demands than you are hence the tantrums or if you'd rather 'little tears' and saying they don't want to go to school etc

TBH, I think that's where I'm going wrong. My children don't have tantrums and don't refuse to go to shool. They just sometimes, very occasionally 'shed a little tear' and 'say they don't want to go to school'. And I now appreciate, thanks to Anna's invaluable insights, that these are very different things.

Oh Anna
that is hilarious - really .
My DC's are lovely kids who get on really well but I didn't recognise the beings you were describing who calmly accept fluid negotiation as pre-schoolers and onwards.
Now I realise that all you have been doing is playing the fairy godmother to everyone elses evil queen.
My DD accepts most things I say because she completely understands that I am on her side, i am reasonable and love her and I have her best interests at heart.
She does not understand it in those terms of course because she is only 5 but she gets it - as does her brother who has SN.
I never shout at my children and I never hit them ( not fantabulous mum - just older and wise enough to know that I personally can get exactly the same result from not shouting) . They are polite and considerate and are affectionate and loving. We do almost everything as a family ( whilst still having occasional outings independently to maintain sanity ).
Yet I am happy to just tell my kids no - that I am in charge. And you charicature this am 'brutalising'
The truth is that you are living the same life as me but sugar coated.
Shedding a little tear is what I call having a whinge. Non negotiable is the same as me just telling her no.
It is the same thing - exactly.
Yet you are portaraying others as bad apparently because you wish to exagerate your own abilities.

Thanks pagwatch, you expressed it much better than I did.

I also kind of wonder why anna needs to come on here and tell us we've all got it wrong and she alone has got it right if her tactics are working so well for her ..

In fact, I'm trying to remember where I've described my 'brutality' to anna and I think it's here:

'Yesterday, I gave dd2 (aged 3) a small chocolate bunny. She wanted another. I explained I was going to give her another - chocolate is a treat and too much of it is bad for us. She wailed and screeched and pestered. I firmly said she couldn't have any more. She continued to wail and screech and pester. I ignored her and deliberately moved away and put some dishes away while she continued to perform and after a while I distracted her with something her sister was doing.'

Pretty darned brutal isn't it?

Now compare this with anna's tactics below

'For example, sometimes in the morning she says she doesn't want to go to school, tells me she doesn't like it etc. I tell her that she has to go (and that her brothers go) and just carry on getting ready and we get there and occasionally she sheds a little tear and asks for a cuddle before going in (which she gets) and then she goes off and it's OK. I have never done anything but turn my back and walk away and left her at school, even on a "bad" day, and she knows that. So - I am firm, but we never descend into screeching or whining or tantrums or refusals'

And the difference is?

oh the humanity !

I think the brutalising might be a reference to my DH physically removing our 5 yr old DS from under the bed, carrying him to the car and strapping him in so that we can all go on a family walk which he doesn't want to go on (but will end up enjoying).
We aren't brutal but we are definately using our superior physical strength in order to to have things our way and not DSs. It is something I am uncomfortable about but it is a last resort after explaining, negotiating or whatever you choose to call it. Sometimes 4 and 5 yr old boys don't listen!

"I don't think 5 year olds should have a choice about things like this - as I say to mine - when this family is declared a democracy I'll let you know!"

was the phrase that I was specifically thinking of when referring to "brutalising". I don't agree with the mindset.

In answer to the OP - generally I do things with all the DSs at weekends, while DH (bless him) does yet more washing and shopping and occasionally takes five minutes out to listen to the football on the radio.

Sometimes all five of us do things together, though. And in fact I've just booked for all five of us to go away together for four nights in the summer holidays, which we haven't done for ages.

I'm trying to decide how to deal with the statement that I have brutalized my children - and I'm not sure I can. It does seem rather an extreme reaction to suggesting that it is sometimes essential/desirable for a member of the family to do something they don't want to because everyone else does.

For the record, when I said 5 year olds shouldn't have a choice I was referring specifically to a poster whose child was objecting to going on family walks - but who enjoyed them very much when he actually got there. It might have been clearer if I had said they shouldn't have a "veto" on a collective activity.

And the democracy line was a joke - the exclamation mark was, I thought, a bit of a give away.

Anyway - Anna8888, you've won. I don't think I want to post on this thread again, interesting thought it is. Perhaps you might like to think twice before using words like "brutalizing". No fun at all to be on the receiving end of that one!

seeker, I am sure that no-one (apart from Anna) thinks you have brutalised your child. Please don't take her seriously, I don't think anyone else does.

No, don't be offended seeker, if she really believes what she says she does then she's quite clearly bonkers.

Most people think that establishing and reinforcing boundaries for your children kind of comes with the territory of being a parent and understand that children are just that - children - and they work in a very different way from adults.

I also think it's important for people to recognize that crying, refusing to go on walks/ go to school/ do homework/ get dressed etc, whining, screeching, moaning, stamping feet and even screaming tantrums are perfectly normal behaviours for children. They are the way children establish and assert their identities and find out about the world.

However, whispers, I think if we were actually flies on the wall in anna's house we would see that her family is not so very different from the rest of ours. It's just that her perception of her children's and her own behaviour and everyone else's are at odds.

So where you and I might describe our children as whining or whinging or even having a tantrum in annaworld her child is 'shedding a little tear'. And where she is 'firm' we are 'bossy' and 'want things all our own way'.

I also quite like the idea that as someone posted earlier anna thinks it is 'brutal' to insist on your child going for a family walk but it is completely acceptable to take a 3 year old to an adult film like Atonement. I don't know if this is true but it is certainly a good thought.

Right, off to do some more brutalising (tell dd2 to put shoes on so we can go an fetch her sister). Do you think that in some people's houses these things just sort of happen? The shoes magically appear on the children's feet and they then skip off merrily to wherever the parent wants to go? Or do you think perhaps I should call a family meeting so we can all vote on whether dd should put on her shoes? Or perhaps I should set aside an hour for dd2 to paint some shoes on to her bare feet and then we should all just play in the garden and leave dd1 to get herself home because actually dd2 would rather go and paint all her Barbies than go and pick up dd1?

I don't have the time to 'reason' with stroppy teenagers about tying back their hair before we do a practical. they do it, or leave my lesson. And they should do it because I know better than them, and I've asked them.

If a policeman re-directs my car, I don't stop and argue the toss, I do as I'm asked.

I agree with you 5candles, there are some children who should have been told 'no' earlier in their lives, and we have to cope with the consequences of their parents' indulgence.

Seeker
please don't take Annas dramatic turn of phrase seriously. No one else does.

And MB, I agree totally. My son with SN simply has to understand what behaviour is acceptable/safe and which is dangerous/unacceptable/inappropriate.
I never did get an answer to my question about how I was supposed to parent a child who couldn't follow logical discussion but I think 'brutalising' is the only way forward.
Quite an entertaining concept really as he is the child who absoloutely twirls me around his little finger - and whose most fluent phrase is " daddy is sucker" (as DS1 constantly observes)

oops
"Anna's"

MB - you are confusing life's negotiables and life's non-negotiables.

Ah Anna

• what do I do with my SN son ? you still haven't told me.

In which case we have few differences other than terminology. You say other people use 'brutality' wheras you ae 'firm'

It must be one of those strange irregual verbs on MN

I am firm
You want your own way
She is brutal

pagwatch - I have absolutely no experience of bringing up SN children. Obviously many SN children will only ever gain a limited understanding of the world and the rules that govern their lives are modified rules versus the majority of the population.

My only experience of an SN upbringing is this. My cousin used to live right above me (same apartment block) for many years. His stepdaughter (now 25) is SN. She spent her childhood failing to learn to read and write in mainstream school (here in France) and at 18 was a very unhappy and frustrated girl with no qualifications (she could barely read). By dint of great good fortune she found an unpaid job as a helper in a Montessori nursery. She ended up spending five years there, and progressed from unpaid helper to a point where she actually managed to gain a qualification for working as an assistant in a Montessori nursery - this required her to do a written exam. All this, by the way, living on her on own as my cousin and his wife (her mother) had moved with their daughter to the US at this point. The SN girl had, therefore, no parental support at this point - she progressed in an absolutely massive and unhoped for way just by being, daily, in the Montessori environment, where, at last, she was allowed (albeit by chance) to progress developmentally at the pace she was able to, with no sticks, no upsets, no shouting, no unrealistic expectations.

She is now mother to a little boy and living happily with her partner in La Rochelle.