First day at Beavers and shocked

[Lskz]

Hi all,
DS(7)finally got a space at local Beavers and today we had first trial session. Stayed with him and shocked by the children behaviour. 16 children in total, half of them do not listen, just run around, kicking each other, making animal sounds and etc. DS is active child but I think even he's shocked. They did the activity for 10 mins and 1hr trying to calm them down so they can do the activity. There were 4 volunteers which is good ratio I guess. I do understand there might be children with special needs and etc, but it looked most of them copy each other. Is this normal? Somehow I imagined this differently.

I would agree that there are a higher % of folk who have a faith (not just Christianity) who do feel as part of their beliefs that they should generously offer their time for free, to serve the community. There are also swathes of Churches across the Country that make their premises available for Community use (often at a very subsidised cost) . I would consider that is something we should be appreciative of, myself, rather than off putting.

My experience of people with faith is they tend to find it very hard to leave it at home and it tends to creep in. Not my bag.

It takes a lot of skill to manage a group of children…

My 5 year old is in a squirrel group and they are calm compared to what people are saying their beaver groups are like.

They do camping for the 4/5 year old squirrels here. Some of the leaders are teachers and trained to help children with ASN so I wonder if that's been helpful for them.

Our beavers was fine, cubs on the other hand utter bloody carnage!

It was in the guardian today that since lockdowns parents no longer see getting their kids to school as a necessity, if they get round to it great but "life's too short to worry about it". Behaviour in schools not great to begin with is intolerable now so I doubt scouts, cubs etc would be any better.

Beavers are feral, in my experience. When helping we had a particularly lively little boy whose mum openly admitted it was cheap babysitting for her and she really looked forward to the camping and trips away as he was gone for a few days at a time.

That is exactly what 7 year old boys are like IME, especially when they are in packs, it's a frankly annoying age.

To be fair when I was in Brownies (so 30 years ago) and we were doing Gang shows I vividly remember the cubs singing "Cub camp is our glory, mothers have your peace" (to the tune of land of hope and glory) and I have forgotten the rest of the lyrics but it was all about how the beavers/cubs would drive their mums mad at home and cub camp was a blessed relief but they would come back honking having worn the same socks for a week

Surely you can enforce rules and expectations. It isn't fun for anyone if it's like a chimp's tea party. Kids like rules and thrive on boundaries.

IME you do get a high percentage of 'spirited' children, put there by parents at their wits end who are hoping some routine and outdoorsy stuff will help.

See also: military cadets, when they're older.

Every Scout group is different, and even within that, the enjoyment of the different sections can be different. It depends on the leaders, the young people attending, the attitude and support of the parents involved, and the circumstances the group finds itself in. A lot of parents do not realise that all of the leaders are volunteers, who spend up to 3 years doing training (in their own time) to help out at their local group, often because they want their own child and other children to enjoy a wide range of activities, for a reasonable price. The fees cover the cost of the activities, badges, insurance, and the running of the hut (some are in church halls because they are cheap to hire, it does not reflect necessarily the views of the leaders, and there is no requirement to believe). It is inclusive, so whereas other "single activity" clubs might boot out the worst behaved (or less accomplished young people out) I think scout groups try to work with it, taking sanctions on behaviour and discussing with parents where they can, and hoping they can support. There are strict ratios, risk assessments, training and planning for sessions and camps that often goes unseen (and unpaid). Even with all of that on your side, there are parents who don't stick around long enough explain their child's needs, or support them themselves, and then get feisty when their child's exacting needs are not completely met or they behave in a way that is detrimental to other children. That is, of course, a one sided view. Some sessions might be badly run, some of the other children there are "beyond lively - feral even" spoiling it for your child, some groups do not offer a great range of activities, some children just don't like it, or don't like the leader. You have choices, take them out of it, find another group that may suit your child better, or be the change yourself - most groups are crying out for volunteers. On another topic mentioned in this thread "is it because the young people have been affected by the covid period". My answer is to this is no, although the way their parents have been affected might be a factor. OP - this isn't really aimed at you (obv the group he is in may not be suiting, and I am sorry he has had to put up with bad behaviour xx) but more generally, so people understand how it actually works. I'll get off my soapbox now I promise ! X

My Dd wanted to enrol a child and was asked to be a parent helper.
There was a bit of online training and a dbs.

Then only one leader and no parent volunteers turned up for her first session and the group was extremely chaotic and feral.
Next week, again only the one leader, who helped welcome the children in, then said she had to leave to attend an appointment!
She went off and left my Dd with the whole group of unfamiliar, yelling, feral children.

At home time my daughter had complaints that the session was disorganised and noisy!
She told the complainers that they could run the meetings then, and left. Dgd had hated the racket anyway.

@Marcipex That is against the Scout Association's policy rules. A trained "warranted" leader has to be present for the entire session, and there has to be an adequate ratio of adult helpers to young people. Doesn't help you now, but sounds like an unpleasant experience for your Dd and Dgd and should not have happened.

@TheVofR
there were two cub leaders next door, so that apparently made it okay.
The group folded as no one would run it.

That sounds great, our section hoping to establish a squirrels section soon, our 4 year old would love it. Yes will be interesting as to whether leaders find it makes a difference to how they are once going up to beavers.

Believe me, we try! Except that most Leaders are not trained to deal with large numbers of young children and so they pick up on this and just go feral. Add in disinterested parents who don’t care about their child’s behaviour, don’t share SN and support needed, the effects of Covid and the ensuing behaviours, and you have a pressure cooker environment at the end of a school day where so many children lose control of their behaviour.

They just do not listen. They wind each other up, copy undesirable behaviour and it’s so frustrating. This week we had a child (9) grab another child’s head and smack it hard into the wall, then he grabbed the knee of another boy and twisted it when he was lying on the floor causing immense pain. When spoken to his face was blank, no empathy or emotion and at pick-up his DF was the same.

I’m a parent volunteer with Beavers and now Cubs and I just wish my DS would want to quit. We have two new Leaders starting this term and they appear to not tolerate poor behaviour but for many kids it’s like water off a duck’s back when reprimanded.

Sadly, I think the Scout movement is doomed. A chronic lack of volunteers and poor child behaviour will lead to it eventually dying out in the years to come without new blood coming in.

What a shame! It sounds like they could do with putting in some training for the leaders and ground rules for participants. Sports groups don't tolerate that kind of behaviour, it's three strikes (or less) and you're out. It sounds like a systemic problem but ultimately it's the kids who miss out.

Honestly, as an experienced teacher and behaviour lead I took one look at our beavers and recognised it was beyond me.
Parents were talking over leaders too, and ignoring wild behaviour like hitting. I maybe in a class could have controlled it, but not with the parents undermining. It was like if you selected the boys with behaviour support needs (Sen or emotional) from 7 classes and put them together whilst over tired. You can support, easily, Sen in the average class. You can’t do much when it’s most the group interacting, their parents don’t care, they are over tired and you have few resources.
I do wonder how they will be by scouts. I’ve seen many through all the way to scouts, and the current scout cohort were nothing like this

Parents were talking over leaders too, and ignoring wild behaviour like hitting. I maybe in a class could have controlled it, but not with the parents

Is it common for parents to stay during the sessions? I run a Rainbows unit and parents drop and go, we don't even have any parent volunteers / a parent rota.

That would be me out then. I have no qualifications (well, I have a GCSEs.) and no job as I'm a carer for my disabled son.

In fact, that would probably be most of the leaders in our group out. And they are all bloody brilliant IMO. Most of them are parents who want to help out and give up lots of their free time to plan and run exciting activities for kids.

Exactly what sort of professional qualification or job are you talking about?

I’m not the leader, I think a few asked to stay help (and didn’t) and then a few more were early collecting. I was only there for the end of the session

Our parents don't even come inside unless there's a specific reason. (Like a new starter needing reassurance).

I don't think qualifications make someone a good Scout leader... there's ineffective leaders who are teachers, and fantastic leaders still at school. Unfortunately it can be tricky to get rid of bad leaders (as long as they do nothing illegal or dangerous) as it is troublesome children.

I'm not sure if we are lucky or extremely strict as we don't generally shout (unless cling them in from the woods or other end of the field) but they aren't feral. We can get silence in 20 seconds using hand signals inside....

You sound great Wot. Thanks for your time and energy. The comment about needing a professional job sounded rather snobby. I have a professional job and no damn time or headspace to be a Scout leader (I do volunteer sometimes). I am very grateful to those who take on the role and I don't give a shit whether they have a degree or not.

Not sure about Scouts but Guiding leadership is safeguarding 1,2 & 3 (even if already have for work eg TA) full day first aid course and a huge amount of work towards leadership qualification (I did book with a mentor it’s now moved online) Hours of commitment in own time. There’s a massive shortage of volunteer leaders as is, if you add a professional teaching requirement then it’s paid job territory.
I do girls, older age group 10-13 and it’s easier as we have firm expectations and don’t tolerate nonsense. We have in the past explained to them we don’t get paid and if it’s not enjoyable then we’ll stop.
Lack of disclosure of issues and additional needs by parents is a huge thing. I’m not sure if it’s parents not realising, lack of diagnosis or not wanting to say in case we say they need to stay and help. There are systems like adjustment plans but it needs parental honesty.

I was at a public venue the other evening when a group of local beavers, cubs and scouts arrived. The volume was ear splitting but I wouldn't say they were badly behaved. It may have helped that they'd drafted in some of the local school staff to help for the outing!