AIBU for feeling weird about what I saw at my daughter’s nursery?

[Probablytired]

My 12 month old daughter has just finished her second week (mon-wed) at nursery. She’s adjusting okay but things could be better, like sleep. I know that’s to be expected though. Today she actually slept really well and came out super happy, but something I saw before that flagged up to me as strange.

Overall, we chose this nursery because of the play environment and how the staff came across as genuinely caring and kind during our visits, but as I was waiting to pick my daughter up today I heard one of the staff shout loudly at a little boy. It was in the slightly older toddlers room, I believe that’s from 17 months, and the little boy was climbing onto the food table (I could see this through the door window). She screamed from across the room ‘GET OFF RIGHT NOW’, stormed over, grabbed the little boy under the arms and roughly put him on the floor. He started crying and nobody comforted him. She then spotted me through the glass pane and I noticed that she went over to him then and calmly said ‘I asked you not to climb on the table’ and comforted him. The manager was sitting in her office with the door open next to us so she would’ve heard it too, and she didn’t bat an eyelid.

Something just isn’t sitting right with me. Did she really need to shout at him like that? They’re only very young still, and handling him like that felt very rough and unnecessary. Thinking back if I’d seen her doing it with my child I would have marched straight into the room and said something, and then I feel bad because that’s somebody else’s child and they might feel the same way but they don’t know about it.

how would you respond to this? Nursery is very new to me, so I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive, all I know is that we don’t shout at our daughter because shouting gets nobody anywhere and is demeaning when she can’t defend herself. I don’t really expect the workers at a nursery I’m paying £95 a day for to be shouting at my child either. What’s your view? I think I need some perspective

Wait and see what the Manager says first and consider if you're happy with the response before you think about what you want to do next.

I'm an ex Ofsted inspector and nursery manager. This is poor behaviour management. Staff shouldn't shout at children, physically pull them or leave them in tears. Good behaviour management would pre-empt situations such as this, particularly if staff are repeatedly intervening. The staff need to put the child in a different seat so they can't climb on the table, not keep shouting at them each time!
Lazy management will ignore this rather than tackle the issue.
This is poor practice.
Staff are paid to be professional, they should not be losing their temper and shouting. They are there to nurture and care for children.
I'd put this member of staff on a performance plan, provide training on behaviour management and move her to work with the older children.
See what the manger says....

And the rough handling?

I would put a complaint and concern in writing to the head of the nursery- report it factually and that it concerned you.

how they respond would make my mind up?

do they call and discuss it and get a full statement
etc

please don’t let it go

that member of staff might need more people or some time off to recuperate if stressed etc

You’ve hit the nail on the head.

staff and toddlers are indoors for hours and hours - in just one room for a big chunk of time. I used to be a CM and we’d be out for a good amount of the day. I’d hate to have to be inside all day, and so must the children. And having worked in a preschool, I can tell you that it gets LOUD.

But at least at preschool it was shorter hours, they had a garden, and the staff were all mums themselves and older, and very loving and nurturing. Two staff members left to work in a nursery but begged to come back even though the shorter hours meant less money. Nurseries are also like a conveyer belt of activity - snack, lunch, naps, staff-led craft that each child must do...it’s relentless, for children and for staff. But children accept very quickly that this is how life is.

Theres a lot of good stuff going on too of course but this is the reality

@jannier we don't really know if it was actually "rough handling" though. The OP only saw a brief moment of the day.

@Nuevabegin you have a strange idea about what qualifications are needed to work in a nursery. Yes it's not a degree you need but you still need a recognised qualification.
My niece did an apprenticeship which included working towards the Level 3 qualification - what used to be the NNEB course which was actually quite hard to get onto in my day. You had to interview and take a test to do NNEB at my local college and it certainly wasn't for "girls with low educational aspirations".
My niece is now qualified and one of the more senior members of staff and is working on new concepts and training regularly.
She doesn't get paid massive wages (it may even be minimum wage - I'm not sure) but of course she gets holiday pay.
It's a full time 'proper' job.

Once is enough it doesn't have to be repeated

What an extremely ignorant post.

Let me tell you something, nobody goes into childcare for the money, because there fucking is none, at least not for those of us who aren't mangers and are in the rooms working our arses off 10 hours a day. Those that do just want to earn a wage and nothing more, I guarantee, do not last very long in the job.

You get crappy workers in every job sector, but most of us are hardworking, dedicated staff, and we adore the children we care for. We go out of our way to make sure the children are fed, changed, happy and engaged in stimulating activities every day.

As for the "women with lower education" bollocks, you do know there are people who work in nurseries with early childhood degrees, yes?

Most nurseries required staff to have at least their level 3 CCLD (that's Children's Care, Learning and Development). They can not pass the course without demonstrating to a tutor through written work over the course of a year or 2, and the tutor coming out to observe them several times, that they are fit to work with children.

Don't even get me started on making activity plans and writing up daily observations. Early years workers have to know about milestones for every age group and what is typical behaviour and what behaviour may be a cause for concern.

Nothing "low education about it."

So fuck off with your hateful bollocks about nursery workers. You might have had experience in a shit nursery where the workers were shameful, but I can tell you now that most nursery workers are not like that, most of us go above and beyond.

Yes this was completely my experience too. I was always bring told off for picking up the crying babies too. Staff were completely different when parents were around.

So glad to read your passionate post for balance and reassurance ❤️

Thank you.

I'm fed up with ignorant people thinking that childcare is a piece of piss and getting on as if we are "glorified babysitters."

It's not a job where any old Tom, Dick or Harry can just walk into, it's hard work, and there is a lot more that goes on than what meets the eye.

It's not just about looking after children. There are so many more factors. It's about teaching children, paving the way for their future education, and laying the foundations that will set them up for life. It all starts in their formative years.

Some children are sadly better off at nursery than at home, and we work with parents and carers to support these children so they can have the best chance at life.

Staff education doesn't stop with their level 3 qualification, that is just the beginning. There is safeguarding, first aid, food hygiene, SEN courses, Makaton, observation training, the list goes on and on.

It is certainly not a job for anyone who is not passionate about the precious children we are entrusted to care for.

As I said in my last post, these people do not last long. Either they find out that nursery work is more than just playing with kids all day and they leave because they can't take the stress, or they are weeded out by nursery room leaders/managers as they are not fit for the role.

But hey, its not a "real" job, it's for teenagers who have just left school, and the kids are all abandoned and shouted at.

I was flamed by nursery workers for starting a thread about something similar.

I would've thought that nursery employees would have been shocked by such a situation - but it seems not.

The thing is - you can't defend the indefensible.

OP - go with your gut.

My grandson was shaking with fear, curled up in a ball on the floor, clinging on to his mother's legs, shouting 'scared mummy' the last time he was taken to a nursery where he'd been for 12 months. He has a significant speech delay. Suddenly, he was able to express himself and describe his feelings.

He made serious allegations about his key worker which he would not be able to fabricate. Fortunately, the police and social workers heard enough from him to immediately arrange a video taped recording with specialised staff. This is being submitted in evidence, along with CCTV footage from the nursery.

What he disclosed was harrowing to hear - no one can justify this treatment of children. Remuneration, fatigue, repetitiveness, administrative tasks, boredom - whatever. There's absolutely no excuse for abuse.

My daughter had ignored several red flags because of the convenience of the nursery being close to where she works. She keeps asking me - how could she put her child through this? Because she blames herself.

He was in nursery for two days a week and the night before each attendance he would be crying and upset. He was refusing to get dressed in the morning. Crying all the way to nursery. He had to be physically carried into the place - handed over at the door. And then he suddenly spoke. Words we never knew that he could say.

Don't ignore red flags.

FWIW I believe that several staff at my children’s nursery are exactly as @WantToBeHappyAndHealthy describes. They’re wonderful and I know my eldest adores them. Obviously there’s a benefit to children to attending as is show by the free hours for children from lower income families. It’s been great to feel and read your passion on this thread. I was feeling a bit disheartened but your posts have reassured me and added much needed balance.

I’m so sorry for your precious Grandson @MyOtherCarIsAPorsche that sounds horrendous.

Sounds very similar @MyOtherCarIsAPorsche

I am glad you went to the police. My biggest regret is, of course, taking him there. My second biggest regret was believing the nursery when they said that procedure was for them to report it themselves, and I would just be getting in the way of investigation if I were to report it. The Health Worker who we went to for help backed them up in this. We were young and naive and believed them.

I hate to say this but I do agency work at nurseries and seen the exact scenario happen and lots of shouting from all the rooms. Even at the babies.
Not said to scare you but parents need to be made more aware. Some staff put on a good show of being really kind and caring but they are really not. I've worked in over twelve nurseries and would only consider putting my own hypothetical kid in just one of them.

Hmmm I think it really depends. I work in a special education school and I am sure at times if a snapshot of me or other staff was seen then it would raise concerns. I treat the children as I would my own, probably better than my own, but there could be a whole backstory to the snippet you have witnessed.
For example:
How many times has the child done this?
Have they tried the softly softly approach which hasn’t worked and are trying a different approach?
Was there fear or him hurting himself and time it would take her to get across the room?
It would certainly make me be more observant when at the nursery to see if this is normal treatment of the children. I would maybe even speak to the manager to discuss my concerns and see how she reacted. But then they know to be on guard when I’m around so possibly would leave this until I had a further reason to be concerned.

Just an example of a complaint in an old school I worked in. A member of public phoned and reported a teacher for manhandling a child, grabbing them by the scruff of the neck. What in fact had happened was the child went to run on the road and the teacher grabbed them by their hood to pull them to safety. Thankfully there were further witnesses who hadn’t just seen 5 seconds of the actual event unfolding.

I would dislike it. To be honest that’s why I was happy I could stay home with mine until they were a bit bigger. I’ve worked in loads of nurseries and what you see/the way the kids are treated when you’re there is not the same as when you are not there. Sad but true in lots of places.

I mean this is the nicest way possible but that just is not necessarily true. The problem with childcare is that it is a job ‘just anyone’ can walk into. Apprentices are hired often with no qualifications, the qualifications you get are a bit of a joke, and it’s NMW.

Not all managers ‘weed out’ bad staff since there’s a massive shortage, because as you said it’s harder work than people think and nobody wants to break their back to earn less than you would stacking shelves in Tesco. So you’ll quite often find unsuitable and badly trained workers in nurseries working.

Well that's a horrible generalisation. We're not all bad!

@Kanaloa of course apprentices have no qualifications - that's how you get the qualification. By being an apprentice 🙄

There is a massive problem with recruiting qualified level 3 or even level 2 staff right now. That's why many nurseries have agency in. I am qualified and am often the only level 3 in the room. In all the nurseries I have been in, the qualified workers have been few and far between.
So it is a job many can walk into. But unqualified staff would obviously not have room leader roles and nurseries by law have to have qualified staff in each room. But it is definitely do able to get a job in a nursery with no qualifications. Some work towards a qualification, others do not.

Agree with managers ignoring bad behaviour from staff also. I am shocked at what some staff have got away with. The managers just don't want to lose their remaining staff. It really is a shocking state of affairs right now. People don't realise how bad it is and the new funding and increased ratios will just make the problems even worse.

I know that. I was responding to the comment that it ‘isn’t a job just anyone could walk into.’ It IS a job just anyone can walk into. The standards/expectations are very low because the pay and working conditions are very poor.

And most people I’ve worked with aren’t staying in the job long term now. We’ve all moved on, because why would you do a high stress and difficult job for the very minimum wage and no benefits when you could do an easier more flexible job for the same?