AIBU for feeling weird about what I saw at my daughter’s nursery?

[Probablytired]

My 12 month old daughter has just finished her second week (mon-wed) at nursery. She’s adjusting okay but things could be better, like sleep. I know that’s to be expected though. Today she actually slept really well and came out super happy, but something I saw before that flagged up to me as strange.

Overall, we chose this nursery because of the play environment and how the staff came across as genuinely caring and kind during our visits, but as I was waiting to pick my daughter up today I heard one of the staff shout loudly at a little boy. It was in the slightly older toddlers room, I believe that’s from 17 months, and the little boy was climbing onto the food table (I could see this through the door window). She screamed from across the room ‘GET OFF RIGHT NOW’, stormed over, grabbed the little boy under the arms and roughly put him on the floor. He started crying and nobody comforted him. She then spotted me through the glass pane and I noticed that she went over to him then and calmly said ‘I asked you not to climb on the table’ and comforted him. The manager was sitting in her office with the door open next to us so she would’ve heard it too, and she didn’t bat an eyelid.

Something just isn’t sitting right with me. Did she really need to shout at him like that? They’re only very young still, and handling him like that felt very rough and unnecessary. Thinking back if I’d seen her doing it with my child I would have marched straight into the room and said something, and then I feel bad because that’s somebody else’s child and they might feel the same way but they don’t know about it.

how would you respond to this? Nursery is very new to me, so I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive, all I know is that we don’t shout at our daughter because shouting gets nobody anywhere and is demeaning when she can’t defend herself. I don’t really expect the workers at a nursery I’m paying £95 a day for to be shouting at my child either. What’s your view? I think I need some perspective

Loads of nurseries tell parents that their children are fine the moment they leave despite the child having cried on and off the whole day.

I also think you should trust your gut.

At the very least, if I were you I'd turn up unannounced in the middle of the day to see what's going on when parents aren't around.

Regardless of what you find, if you're not happy, find another place for him.

I think it’s disturbing, yes. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with my child there going forward.

It’s really great your little one is now so vocal, OP. I really wish my friend’s toddler was - who is non-verbal, as babies obviously are too. This thread is even more awful when you think of these little ones. Regardless of their pay (as a couple have commented on), it goes without saying that people shouldn’t start this job if they don’t know how to do a basic thing like communicate with babies and toddlers in an age-appropriate way. This is why I’d remove my child - although I also understand just how difficult to impossible it is to find a nursery place that will agree to the hours you need to work! I think this will only get worse with free hours from much younger starting. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, btw. It’s very welcome but a lot of thought needs to go into this which I’m not convinced will be the case… I hope I’m proven wrong but I won’t hold my breath. All we can do is trust our instincts.

@lv884

i have a nearly two year old too who obviously can’t report back in the same way my pre-schooler can. Clearly my pre-schooler was once a baby too. In fact I switched childcare settings after a CM told me my son didn’t engage or talk to anyone or other children after 6 months of thinking he had a great time there! I found that really upsetting as imagined him sat mute all day. His whole demeanour about childcare changed when I moved him. He would shout “yay” when we pulled into the car park of nursery!

This.

I've worked in early years for over 30 years and sadly there's always one or two staff that behave very differently when parents or other visitors are in the room!

Aw bless him! That’s wonderful he’s now somewhere he loves and you can drop him off happy that he’s having a good experience and being developed. I love hearing stories of how they practically skip in in the morning, barely say goodbye to their folks dropping them off as they’re keen to explore all the toys - and even have a tantrum when it’s time to go home. 🙈

It’s not going to get better for the tories increasing the number of 2 year olds to adult ratio - always trust your gut. Mine were in nursery for years, tried several and there was very little actual care in evidence in any of them whether they were highly sought after or not.

Honestly, I don’t think what you describe is unusual. When my dcs were small we didn’t use childcare under three( and yes it was v tricky as no family support but I worked freelance and dh f/t , back working now as my 3 dcs are all in primary)
I would never use a nursery/crèche as when I took a year out post uni and pre my post grad I worked in a good few nurseries and saw so so much horrible behaviour towards dcs. They can’t speak so are too vulnerable at this stage .
Fact is staff are paid way too little for what is a really exhausting, draining job, most people find it difficult at home with one on their own ! They become resentful and take it out on dcs. They are stuck inside with them so much which I think is a huge part of the problem, imagine being with several v small dcs inside for hours , they have no concentration span , it’s so relentless. The lack of stimulation was awful for dcs , inside literally hours a day . When mine were that small we had to be out and moving or they would climb the walls. I think that’s a huge issue in nurseries and crèches , huge boredom all round. People absolutely hate the job, that’s why there’s such a high turnover, they need to pay so much more , proper salaries, it won’t make the job easier but would get the right ppl in there with proper qualifications. I noticed a lot of nursery staff were younger with v little qualifications and might have thought the job would be easier ..
I saw staff shout regularly at small dcs, leave them in high chairs too long , avoid changing them , mocking dcs , oh and they aren’t “ miracle workers “ re sleep as I hear on mn so often , they just put them down and shut the door as are way too busy to do any of the routine etc. Inoftej saw that staff had favourites too which was so grim while other kids were left there. I reported things but don’t think anything happened as they are so desperate for staff.
The updates and photos mean nothing, they don’t remotely give an overall picture.
What you saw was horrible but sadly not at all uncommon. Go with your gut re the nursery. I know it’s so so difficult when you have to /need to/want to work and I know very well re lack of childcare options. Just wasn’t worth it for us , we preferred less money in the early years. It’s worked out now as both back working in our careers. If you have to use them I’d try and find a nursery where the staff are older , maybe have they own children , where they keep shifts short , when there’s a low turnover of staff; those would be my key points to look out for. Good luck op.

Different nurseries also suit different children. DS never really settled at the day nursery he went to as a baby and turned into a different child the minute I gave up work. He was, however, very happy at the rough and tumble playgroup/nursery he attended from 2-1/4 to 3-1/2. DD hated it, did a term and I moved her to something much gentler.

Instinct is important, especially when they aren't big enough to articulate.

What on earth was an infant doing climbing on the lunch table though? Even my cats are trained not to do that!

Going back decades but I also think if a nursery is rigid about the time you view that's time for spidey senses. A highly rated nursery allowed visits between 10 and 10.30 - it was perfect. I left something behind and what I saw at 11.30 was very very different. I hear lots of stories later.

My advice would be to spot check when staff don't expect it. Also DS's key carer became a babysitter and stayed in touch when she had her own baby. She had some stories to tell.

I'm a Childminder and DH works in a nursery. We've agreed that the shouting can be necessary because it could be dangerous and children need to know boundaries that keep them safe and prevent disasters. The rough manhandling is hard to judge. The EYFS says:

"Providers must not give or threaten corporal punishment to a child and must not use or threaten any punishment which could adversely affect a child's well-being. Providers must take all reasonable steps to ensure that corporal punishment is
not given by any person who cares for or is in regular contact with a child, or by any person living or working in the premises where care is provided. Any early years provider who fails to meet these requirements commits an offence. A person will not be taken to have used corporal punishment (and therefore will not have committed an offence), where physical intervention (57) was taken for the purposes of averting immediate danger of personal injury to any person (including the child) or to manage a child’s behaviour if absolutely necessary. Providers, including childminders, must keep a record of any occasion where physical intervention is used, and parents and/or carers must be informed on the same day, or as soon as reasonably practicable.

(57) Physical intervention is where practitioners use reasonable force to prevent children from injuring
themselves or others or damaging property"

I think it comes down to why the member of staff made that choice. Did they feel the child was at risk and they used reasonable force to keep them safe, does this child have a habit of doing dangerous things and need consistent and firm reminders or did the member of staff do it simply out of frustration.

For us, what sparks concern is that the child cried and wasn't comforted until the member of staff saw you looking, which possibly casts doubt on why they removed the child so forcibly.

If we had been in this situation and had needed to use force we both said we would have immediately got down on their level and explained to the child why we didnt what we did (it doesn't sound like the member of staff did that) and given a cuddle if they were upset.

What happened should be recorded as an incident so you could tell the manager what you saw and that you felt uncomfortable and ask if it was recorded. Safeguarding is everyone's responsibility and it's easy to dismiss things and think they're professionals and it's probably OK. Sometimes it's not OK. I imagine that Mamager didn't flinch at what they heard because without the visual it probably just sounded normal.

Not the same but I have really screamed at my son before when it was a safety issue and I couldn’t get to him in time, it was near a road (he was maybe 9/10, road safety trained but wasn’t paying attention). Did she shout because it was an imminent risk of danger? Not great but I remember the fear and helplessness I’ve felt when I thought my own would hurt themselves seriously!

Hypocritically, I probably would see this as a red flag (I don’t feel I had a right to scream at my own child who I thought was in imminent danger but I certainly don’t think anyone else should) and would have probably looked for alternate child care as I’d have struggled to let it go.

Sadly this is true.

Many day nurseries have a constant stream of 'apprentices' who are very badly paid and totally inexperienced.

I left working in private day nurseries many years ago and would never return!

This thread has made me so sad! I accept all of the comments re being underpaid (although I don’t agree that this is enough to turn a kind person to unkind actions towards a child) but I really thought the vast majority of childcare providers were fond of children and fundamentally kind.

Awful stories above. Maybe I was just really naive.

I don't think it's the pay necessarily that makes carers frustrated and snappy, more the working conditions. The vast majority of people who work in childcare are fundamentally kind and fond of children.
High stress, long hours, boredom. Lots of tasks and not enough time. Lots of noise and crying, sensory overload. Many people struggle being stuck at home with one or two toddlers of their own who they love unconditionally so I think it's a bit much expecting people in a nursery with 10 or 20 toddlers to be perfectly gentle, kind and serene every moment.

perfectly gentle, kind and serene every moment.

I certainly don’t expect that. But there’s a lot between that and roughly handling a child and some of the stories on here - like a PP who described staff deliberately hurting her child.

Obviously hurting a child is pretty extreme, but staff being stricter than parents would be, snapping/shouting occasionally, physically moving children, getting frustrated, not comforting as quickly or often as a parent would, ignoring crying is not uncommon in big group settings.

This is exactly it , imagine the noise and screaming all day. I had three dcs under 5 and absolutely adored my dcs and sometimes found it hard but I had love to keep me going . The ppl working in these places don’t even love the kids and are often stuck for long hours in one room with loads of toddlers . When I was at “home” with small dcs we had to go out loads , beaches , walks, softplays , woods , playgrounds. If I stayed inside for hours it was extremely difficult, they would get agitated , I would become so exhausted and bored but outside was great for us all.
Small kids in nurseries are inside for hours and hours a day. The bit of painting they might take a picture of is prob a 10 min thing, toddlers don’t sit for long painting at all. Those workers are inside for hours in an extremely boring , demanding, full on jobs.
It’s too much and I don’t necessarily think it’s something ppl who love kids go into , in fact it’s often girls /women with lower education or who have less options for education . Sometimes you can get ppl who are genuinely interested but you aren’t going to get a degree etc in childcare or child psychology to work min wage . I don’t even think they get paid holidays ??! When I worked in one as a student they were so critical of the parents and v v much saw themselves covering the drudge work for parents at an extremely low wage, that breeded resentment and they took it out on the kids. You’d get the odd cute looking kids who were favourites and then others who were basically abandoned and then I saw the acts when parents came in . “ oh they were happy out , ate all their lunch , slept like a dream” . I hated the places and felt awful for the dcs, I used to pick them up and was told loads to stop cuddling them as they get too needy. Wish more parents who are paying through the teeth saw what went on.

None of that really concerns me (bar ignoring crying - obviously that happens like it does at home but it shouldn’t be routine).

stormed over, grabbed the little boy under the arms and roughly put him on the floor.

Love the emotive language. As he was liable to hurt himself are you sure she didn't just rush over, lift him under his arms and place him on the floor?

I’d say it was descriptive not emotive.

Why would she spin it? We're talking about something that happened to a child. It's important to get the language accurate. Why would you assume that these stronger descriptive words aren't accurate? If they are, it's very important the op doesn't mix them up with the milder version you described.

No, I wouldn’t exactly have an issue if she had just had a perfectly normal physical interaction with a child. No use in trying to be emotive, it’s not like I wanted to see it.

Thank you everyone for your responses, some of them saddened me quite a bit as I was excited about our nursery and back to work journey, but I really appreciate your honesty too. I am going to talk to the manager about what I saw but I’m really unsure what to do from there with regards to my toddler though