11yo son is complete arse and I am fed up of him. Constructive suggestions please

[IScreamAtMichaelangelos]

DS1 is 11.5 and a bit of a dickhead. He routinely insults me (mostly me), his dad and brother, calls us names, insists we're awful, overstrict, hideous parents etc. I find this very difficult to cope with and it doesn't help that DH thinks I should be able to just ignore it. I'm not going to just ignore being called a fat biatch, am I 🙄

Advice please, kind Mumsnetters. How to deal with this in a way that a) doesn't escalate the situation to confiscation of phones but b) doesn't let him get away with being a twat?

I can't just look back at what my own parents did because they (well, my mother) tended towards smacking heads into walls and so I never said boo to her. I don't want to go that way with my own kids but he is making it very difficult to keep my composure on am hourly basis....

Help!

Why don't you want to confiscate his phone? I'd certainly be thinking along the lines that phones/ipad/xbox are for the use of responsible adults, and he is not behaving maturely so until he does, he will be treated accordingly. No drama, no discussion. But calling his mother a fat bitch is a really big deal OP, he needs to have consequences.

I do routinely confiscate his phone/PC router, it doesn't seem to make much difference.

DH was raised with zero boundaries so views any consequence at all as dangerously authoritarian 🙄

He says stuff like that so often (followed by 'IT'S A JOKE, GOD') that I thought I might be overreacting :/

That’s horrible. Where is he getting this kind of chat from? School? His mates? A tv show?

What happens if you look at him really seriously and say 'don't call me that' for example? Like not offended (though obviously it's offensive) but controlled sternness? And not breaking it when he says the 'joke' stuff?

I think I'd try a combination of that when he's being a dick - or even telling him he's being a dick, that can sometimes shock them into realising you're serious - and being extra loving and making an effort to build the relationship up when he isn't being a dick. Sounds hard though, esp if you had violent parents. I know being strict can feel dangerous in that case sometimes.

His own internal shitty narrative, I think. All his friends seem lovely (I guess they would). Family friends say he is almost always very polite with them, which is kind of worse as I know he can do it if he wants to.

I'd be sitting down with him in a quiet moment (not in the heat of it happening) and asking him about how he likes to be spoken to, by friends, teachers, parents etc. Talk about respect, talk about how over the years lots of jokes have been at the expense of a person, a group: blonde jokes, mother in law jokes, Irish jokes etc. How it might seem when saying it versus how it gets received.

Then I'd talk about how people have to muddle along together when they live in the same house, and your expectations of how that needs to be from this point on.

Then I'd remind him that you expect a certain standard of behaviour from him, and what the consequences will be for future infractions.

My child knows this as the "with rights come responsibilities" conversation.

I do that a lot. It doesn't make much difference, he still does it.

It doesn't help that DH often breaks in in the middle to tell me I'm acting like I'm DSs age and need to be the adult. I am being an adult mate, I'm repressing my inner urge to lash out quite hard at this point. If that isn't adult then what is?!

If mine was doing this, there'd be no phone, no PlayStation and no pocket money. You need your dh to back you up - it won't work if he gives in or undermines you. Kids are excellent at exploiting any division between parents so a united front is key. I'd go with one warning, then a consequence.
Whatever it is that he values most, has to be under threat of removal if he speaks to you like shit.

You do need to make punishments a limited time and give him an opportunity to put things right - he won't improve if he's constantly being punished, so you can't ground him for weeks on end. You want him to get to a place where he can compare life with all his stuff, being taken out to nice places, seeing his friends etc, to life without those things and you want him to conclude that life with is better!

I would also consider speaking to school and seeing if there are any behaviour issues there and maybe also getting some help from a parenting course if you think they might help you snd dh with strategies to present a united front.

Im assuming DS is neurotypical and that you don't suspect any unidentified conditions.

I like @TheFeistyFeminist 's approach but also you might need to have this chat with your H.

I'd just like to point out that this is a very gendered insult. Letting an 11 year old practise misogyny without consequence is dangerous, both for them and everyone else. You shouldn't have to put up with bullying and domestic violence in your own home. And yes, I do view constant abuse as domestic violence.

This is a good approach. It sounds like you're going to continue to struggle until you get your dh onside. Tell him to stop undermining you and ask him why he thinks you should have to put up with such disrespect and underline that the situation is making you unhappy.

I wouldn't tolerate being called names and I wouldn't raise a child who sayssomething shitty then pretends it's a joke.

If my ds 12 says something is a joke (usually to his brother) then gd gers told that if the other person isn't laughing then it's not a joke and tjat thd excuse doesn't wash. I specifically tell him that he can't get away with such snide behaviour.

It doesn't help that DH often breaks in in the middle to tell me I'm acting like I'm DSs age and need to be the adult.

Well that explains why then, its misogyny. Your son becoming like his father.

When your DH says you need to act like the adult - he may well have a point and I would speak to him calmly at a different time to check this. Your mother wasn’t the best role model so you might have something to reflect on?

I say this as someone who had a terrible mother and sometimes I do start reacting to DS’s rudeness and am acting no better than he is by shouting and getting emotional.

second of all, have some firm red lines which you stick to when certain lines are crossed. Other things - let it wash over you and ignore it because your DS is childishly looking for a reaction.

Sounds like DH is at the root of the issue. I'd be having serious words - does your H think your 11 y/o son calling you a fat bitch is ok? He doesn't want to escalate the situation and be authoritarian? I'd be escalating it up your DH's wazoo.

I find it really shocking that there isn't consequences to doing it already.
It is totally unacceptable to be called names by a child. 11.5 year old with a phone is a while other issue.

I would have blown up long ago if this has been happening for some time and telling him exactly why it is totally unacceptable to speak to people like that.
All tech, screens, clubs and anything a privilege would be gone until he can consistently show respect.
I'd also threaten to tell teachers- sounds petty but most kids don't like the thought of being seen to misbehave by someone of authority like that.
Also speak openly about it to other people "DS isn't having/doing XYZ at the moment because he has said XYZ" - name and shame him because that is what he is doing to you and it won't be liked.
Some might think it's a bit mean but being called a fat bitch by own child needs consequences.

I'm definitely not as blameless as I'd like. It's such hard work; my default is to want to smash his head into the wall. I don't, and have never hit him/pushed him. But no physical pushing AND no shouting AND speaking calmly AND staying in control at all times? That's a really long reach for me and no way do I get there....

So yes, you may have a point.

Im assuming DS is neurotypical and that you don't suspect any unidentified conditions.

I have wondered about ADHD tbh, his impulse control is shit. I'm autistic and so is DS2, so it is in the family.

There are often consequences for his behaviour, only he and often DH make me feel like a terrible person for imposing them.

I do think this is a good point too. I find myself wanting to use emotional blackmail/ insults like my terrible parent did sometimes. Good to check. Partly because it's awful, obviously, but also because responding at that level is really ineffective.

For what it's worth I have never used the punitive approach that obviously works for some on this thread - I'm not necessarily criticising it, it would just require a personality change from me and then I think the kids would sniff out inauthenticity. But when the kids did something really unacceptable I would try to approach it with inner resolve and authority. It IS terrible behaviour. You ARE the adult. You are right to be stern.

Your DH is setting a very bad example of tolerating abusive language towards women. He should be coming down hard on your DS when he hears this kind of behaviour - absolutely not telling you to ignore it or undermining you in front of him.

From your side, I wonder if letting DS see how upsetting it is (rather than getting angry back) will help him see how awful he is being. If he sees he’s breaking his DM’s heart by calling her a horrible name, I would hope he would feel terribly guilty.

I mean, you have called your son a dickhead and an arse just in the first post. I know he's not on Mumsnet but first of all I'd make sure you are setting a good example and not calling him, or anyone else, names.

Is there a local parenting course you could go on?
I think it is really hard to parent children when your own parents have been abusive. You know what you do not want to do, but it is harder to know what to do.

Classic mumsnet. It's all DH's fault. Despite the mother calling an 11 yo an arse, dickhead, twat all in one post. I wonder if you've ever accidentally let slip these names to your son? My mother's every other word was profanity and she wondered where we picked it up from...

Is there a family culture of being jokily mean/ sarcastic to each other? This was always my family culture. Is difficult to gauge what is/isn't acceptable sometimes as a kid. Not excusing it if you tell him it's not, but maybe that culture needs to be put to rest for a bit if you do have it.

I do struggle to not swear at him, and sometimes it comes out, I'll admit. I do endeavour not to, and to speak to him like a reasonable human (or rather a human who can be reasoned with).

I've cried before and said very plainly that I feel awful when he speaks like this. He looks momentarily guilty, then later forgets and does it all again.

In my experience of DS growing up, if you ignore him when he's being goady then it escalates to him seeking a reaction even harder. That makes it more difficult to ignore him, for fear of what he'll push it to.