11yo son is complete arse and I am fed up of him. Constructive suggestions please

[IScreamAtMichaelangelos]

DS1 is 11.5 and a bit of a dickhead. He routinely insults me (mostly me), his dad and brother, calls us names, insists we're awful, overstrict, hideous parents etc. I find this very difficult to cope with and it doesn't help that DH thinks I should be able to just ignore it. I'm not going to just ignore being called a fat biatch, am I 🙄

Advice please, kind Mumsnetters. How to deal with this in a way that a) doesn't escalate the situation to confiscation of phones but b) doesn't let him get away with being a twat?

I can't just look back at what my own parents did because they (well, my mother) tended towards smacking heads into walls and so I never said boo to her. I don't want to go that way with my own kids but he is making it very difficult to keep my composure on am hourly basis....

Help!

This must be so, so tough. You've had some excellent advice already.
I think if DH isn't supportive then you're in for a long ride as DS isn't getting a consistent message about what is and isn't acceptable in the home.
Youve said that you get to the point where you're reactive and DS is pushing for this reaction. At the moment, you can take everything away or reframe it aa rewarding good behaviour, but you're not really addressing what your expectations are. If DS does have adhd (as you've mentioned suspecting) then you need to make it completely explicit what you are expecting from him. As PP has said, choose your battles. Tell him-in a moment of calmness that you create (can you do something just you and him? Go out for a hot chocolate or something)- what you expect from the way he speaks to you, and also how you're going to try and adjust how you respond to him? I'm not saying this is a 'you' issue, but if DS knows you're trying to pull back on shouting/swearing too, there's less likelihood of him approaching this like he's a victim.
When he's rude, you tell him firmly "you will not speak to me like this' and you walk away.
If he follows looking for reaction, you repeat and say 'if you continue speaking to me like this, I will remove x, y z '. Then do it. Let him shout/scream/call you names. Ignore. You've given the punishment and by keeping calm, you're keeping the power.
The key is to be calm and consistent. You do this every time but it's so important you make expectations explicit. He needs to know what to expect.
It'll take time. You will slip up and you apologise when you do. Let him see that you hold yourself accountable for the way you treat others too.

A few things stand out and may or may not be helpful:

1. Connect before you correct. This means getting down to his experience; why is he feeling the need to call names? He must be angry about something, is there some way of working together on this?
2. Lead by example. If you swear at him you can't ask him not to do the same back. Really, you just can't.
3. Getting yourself help doesn't mean the whole family has to and it can make a difference but it has to be the right kind of therapist and therapy.
4. Your husband is undermining you. Who'll he stop? Maybe, maybe not. But it's seriously not helping
5. When a child, particularly adolescent, plays up, they often have one thing lacking out of these 3 things: 1) your time and attention/interest in their life (relatedness), 2) their ability to now be as autonomous as is humanly possible before their fully fledged adulthood, and 3) competence: the need to feel they can achieve something and get satisfaction from it to make it worthwhile and in keeping with who they truly are. Your son has this in him or he wouldn't be such a golden child elsewhere.

The important thing is to seek to understand and don't shame.

Understand doesn't mean being permissive all the time though. It merely means you get where they're coming from. I mean honestly get it. But you don't agree, and theres a different way that keeps him nice (who he is) and is also nice for this around him (or, his Mum).

But you might have to model it first though. Don't be afraid to admit you don't always get it right, but will do your best endeavours to turn it round like you are asking of him too.

I like this approach and it worked well with challenging teenagers I worked with.
They appreciate honesty and despite how they appear, they really and genuinely need love and praise.
Its very easy to get into a cycle of negativity at a time when a) their hormones are all over the place. b) they are exposed to lots of outside influences and c) because they are becoming more independent we stop doing some of the caring things for/with them.
Its not easy but remember they are struggling with big emotions and challenges too.

I’d make a list of fun things he likes to do in the month and each time he’s abusive, cross one off and explain bad behaviour will not be rewarded.

Maybe disappointment will make him start to understand behaviour has consequences.

It seems like there's a few different things going on here but it sounds like a lot of it comes down to boundaries (or lack of them).

Healthy boundaries are pretty much essential in all our relationships. If your boundaries are too rigid, you're going to have problems and if your boundaries are too slack/non existent, you're also going to have problems.

Your DS thinks you're an easy target because he doesn't have any boundaries with you. You sometimes shout and swear back at him (maybe because you didn't have appropriate boundaries growing up yourself?). Your DH definitely doesn't have any boundaries so he undermines you in front of DS and it all goes round in horrible circles.

There's a really good book called 'Boundaries' which you might find helpful. Can't immediately remember the author's name but he also does spin off books,boundaries with kids, boundaries with spouses etc.

The book encourages you to draw up your own boundaries, a list of things you will/will not tolerate. So in your instance, your boundaries might be:

You won't tolerate name-calling from your DS
You won't tolerate being undermined publicly by your DH

And maybe a third or fourth. These are non negotiable lines and if other people cross your boundaries then there are appropriate consequences. In time, you're teaching them there's certain things that you're just not going to tolerate and if they habitually do these things, there will be predictable consequences.

Only you can work out what your boundaries/consequences are but the book is a good read.

I would give him real consequences. Example: if he insults you then the next day you should make a big deal about being nice to your other son, giving him treats etc, or taking him out. If you’re doing the legwork for lifts / pocket money etc, then stop. I would also tell him firmly that if he continues then he won’t get anything for Christmas and then stick to it.

I would also try talking to him how he talks to you. This might work better I think - so if he calls you a fat bitch you could then say ‘look the twat has entered the room’ - this might actually work well as it will horrify him if you have, thus far, been a push over.

The problem you've got is with your bloke, not your son. If he doesn't back you up, you're going to get nowhere.

He does it because there’s no real consequences. They need to be rigid. They need to be consistent which is the most important thing

you Probably didn’t notice but you yourself called your son two different names in the OP. You called him a dickhead and you called him a twat…..he’s learnt it from somewhere.

have only read OPs posts.

Firstly I'd say you really need to get a handle on your reaction. When calm tell your DH that he is not to step-in and tell you you're acting like a child in front of DC. he could, say, come over and ask you to have a word in a different room and remove both of you from the situation.

If you can stay calm, how about you try the sexist joke tactic a lot of us do with colleagues/random men? the one where they say "it's a joke" and you say, "ah! a joke." pause "no, sorry, i don't get it can you explain it". And keep going until they realise it's not funny. 11 may be too young for that.

You have a dh problem. Until this is resolved there is little point addressing it with your ds.

I would be so upset, Op, with both my dh and ds, for this. And I speak as the mother of a ds whose behaviour was extremely challenging for at least 5 years.

You can withdraw your goodwill such as lifts to friends or activities due to his rudeness to you.

Perhaps put in regular activities together that he enjoys that you can withdraw because you are hurt. Ask what his friends would do/say if he deliberately said something hurtful to them.

When he says something horrible you can always agree and remind him that you are there to be his parent not his mate but being nasty to you means there will be consequences he may not like as you have feelings too.

My ADHD child really lashes out when she is anxious/stressed/unhappy. We have had conversations that although I may accidentally hurt her feelings you she has done it deliberately and that is far from ok.

I do need to get a handle on my reaction, that is true.

Someone asked if I had no boundaries - I had nothing but 😂 it meant I wasn't allowed to reply to my mother's rants, ever. So I just spent my time sitting quietly and praying fervently that she'd die, which frankly wasn't great either.

I have difficulty with finding the middle ground between adult me using my words and being polite, respectful etc, and what I grew up with (shouting and a hand round the face for good measure). I emphatically don't want to do the second one but it's an effort not to as that's my internal default of how situations like this are 'resolved'.

Ah, parenthood.

You feel like your child is a dickhead. He knows this. He can feel your contempt. This is a relationship and connection issue, which you are in charge of rebuilding because you are the adult.

No amount of confiscating electricial equipment is going to improve your relationship with him.

if you ignore him when he's being goady then it escalates to him seeking a reaction even harder. That makes it more difficult to ignore him, for fear of what he'll push it to.

This is him looking for connection, or a sense of love, acceptance and belonging, from you. No, he's not going about it in the right way, because he's a child and over the course of his upbringing, for whatever reason, the culture in the household has led him to believe that this is what works.

Start again, from scratch, get some real life help and support from a therapist who works with families. If your DH won't get involved then you can't force him, but it should not stop you going ahead with it.

Your husband is actually doing your son a huge disservice. When he gets older and thinks it's acceptable to treat a girlfriend like he treats you she will leave him, if he does eventually get to the stage where someone has stuck around long enough to bare him a child he'll probably be abusive like this to it, if it were female.

You need to speak to him and make him realise there is a middle ground between ignoring your son's misogynistic abuse of you and swearing at him. Because he's actually failing more as a parent than you, not just a parent but as a husband. Standing by and allowing your son to abuse you verbally is abuse too.

This is him looking for connection, or a sense of love, acceptance and belonging, from you. No, he's not going about it in the right way, because he's a child and over the course of his upbringing, for whatever reason, the culture in the household has led him to believe that this is what works.

This is bang on the money OP.

Also, it's described like being tied up together as a family; tied so tightly no one can move to change things, but if one person (in this case you, the parent) can wriggle your way free... just a hand to start with, then everyone can begin to shift in their position even though the rope is still tied tightly around you all, and eventually the more free your hand is then your arm will follow, then the other arm, and hey presto, you step out of the binds and everyone is free of how it used to be. It only takes one person to start the work.

DH thinks I should be able to just ignore it.

Why? If your son thinks the behaviour you've described here is acceptable, he's at risk. He obviously feels "safe" treating you like shite, but if he does the same to others he is running the risk or a physically violent reaction or serious negative consequences at school, in his social group(s), and eventually professionally. He's ELEVEN. Parents (both) need to guide him, actively, AWAY from harmful behaviour.

Further, his dad should NOT be speaking up in FRONT of the child criticising your reaction/parenting. Do you also do that to him? The two of you obviously need to discuss the matter, but in private.

It doesn't seem like your husband is able to listen to and understand your concerns, feel empathy, put himself in another person's place, or compromise at ALL. He just wants what he wants and shouts louder when he doesn't get it, all the while not being able to articulate his logic. That's a rotten basis for a relationship OR for co-parenting. It's ironic that he's telling you to act like an adult when he himself, from your description, seems to be stuck in adolescence. Is he a good parent or a good partner in ANY way? If not, it may be time to just sideline/ignore him on this matter and do what you can to help your son on your own. It sounds like your husband's upbringing, like yours, was detrimental - albeit in a completely different way - but that can't be your top concern now. Husband's an adult who can get help when he's ready, son is a child who needs you to help him get help.

From what you say here, your son MAINLY does this to you, occasionally to other household members (dad and brother) and rarely or never to anyone else. This means he's targeting you, specifically, and I think it's worth finding out why that is. Can the two of you go to family counseling on your own, maybe with the brother if appropriate? Invite your husband, but don't react if he doesn't want to go, just carry on getting your son help. A set of diagnostic tests to make sure there's no underlying physical, neurological, or MH issue before proceeding with it as as social/relationship issue would be a good first step.

Perhaps your lad calls you a fat bitch because of how he's feeling, too.

It's not ok though.

Don't think about your son in this way. Don't call him a dickhead or an arse or shitty even in your mind. Certainly don't describe him to a bunch of internet strangers as those things.

Don't think about yourself in this way either.

Think of yourself and of him in a respectful way and cherish yourself and him. He may be annoying and difficult - sure - but don't call him vulgar names in your mind.

In terms of dealing with him I think an atmosphere of greater self respect is needed. Don't allow an 11 year old to upset you so that you cry in front of him and get into complex emotional shenanigans with him about how hurt you are. He's 11 of course he is a pain and says hurtful ungrateful things. Just tell him that kind of talk is not acceptable and you won't put up with it.

Equally don't resort to swearing at him and calling him names yourself.

Why does your dh say, in the middle of your argument with your son, that you should act the adult? And why does he disapprove of your punishments?

On this thread it's been assumed he is wrong, but I can think of times when I would intervene if the other parent was being verbally aggressive, for example. Is that what's happening, or if not, what does your dh mean? If you just throw punishments out 'right that's it no phone for a year' (which some parents do) then I kind of see his point as well. Hard to say from your examples. I'm not really a fan of punishments either but if you're not going down that road, you need to do positive parenting with rewards instead. Is he just in a passive centre ground?

It can be very difficult to have an autistic parent and sibling. What kind of outside support does he have to help him?

Another one I used to do

'Wow I love you too darling' 😬

I also did a lot of completely changing the subject and not rising to it and occasionally stuck my fingers up behind his back (but that's childish🤣) made me feel better though

I think I will try and model myself on your parenting style onmywayamarillo 😂

My punishments are usually fairly reasonable, I think? Phone confiscated for a day if he says something shitty and doubles down even after being given a chance to apologise, that sort of thing.

I think you need to have a serious chat with your dh. Him undermining you is not helping.

Yeah, that doesn't sound bad. Presumably it's not a punishment that happens every few days or weeks ...

It's not my personal approach, and I didn't find it helpful to punish, but unlike your husband I would have other suggestions based on a positive parenting model.

As an example around the chance to apologise, how are you framing that to him? There are different ways of saying the same thing and it may be that he feels boxed into a corner to not apologise. Just thinking aloud.

Gently, your "punishments' which are just completelly unrelated consequences, aren't working and aren't addressing the cause of the issue, which is the only thing that will.