'Be good and you'd get a present from santa' Anyone else feel this is wrong wrong wrong!

[tigermoth]

Over the years I admit I've have said to my son, only good children get presents from santa/me etc, but the more I think about it the worse this sentiment seems.

Do I really want my son to grow up believing that poor children are bad and rich children are good?
And the number of presents you get directly corresponds to how many brownie points you tot up? Is christmas just a reward ceremony?

And what sort of man is this santa anyway? If he's this jolly and generous chap, the spirit of christmas, would he really forget naughty children? And what sort of parent am I, that my generosity is conditional? What happened to unconditional love, that thing parents are meant to have?

I'm not saying do away with santa - I just think he's not meant to judge children.

Could you actually resist buying a particular present just because your child hadn't been good enough? I don't think I could do this. I'm all for reward systems, but isn't christmas a time to call a truce?

PS sml if you are reading this, I've a feeling this topic was touched on while back as part of anothe topic - sorry if this is going over old ground for you!

I know - I feel so foolish.

And betrayed.

I'm a santa fan as I've already posted - jasper, you said it best - but something's just occured to me. Those of you who are planning to tell your kids the 'truth' from the start may be onto a sticky wicket. I'm always telling DS that the ghost etc he see's on his programs aren't real, and although he kind of believes me, there remains an element of doubt. Children themselves make these fantasies real. Once they've heard the story and seen the man in red around the place every year, he's real enough.

SoupDragon, love your moon analogy.
DS often notices the moon hiding behind buildings and looking beautiful and shivery in the daytime. We have our own extensive make-believe about the moon, which I'll share one day. Roald Dahl, David Almond and even good old JK R know how important these magical worlds are for children.

SoupDragon and aloha love both those stories. I think the idea that we are 'lying at the expense of children' assumes children have no sense of humour. They love being involved in jokes and adults pretending things when they know it's not true.

I have to talk to my daughter's doll as though she is walking with us to school (she' still in the car). It's all part of play acting. By definition, that's 'lying' but they LOVE IT!!!!

Anais - have you told your kids to 'lie' to other kids about Father Christams? If not, what do they say?

This is a can of worms that I don't have to deal with this year but will do by next Xmas.

I'm planning on going with the truth. I found out by accident at the age of 5 and it spoiled what I had been lead to believe so I'd rather not risk the disappointment.

1. FC isn't real.

2. The presents are from Mummy and Daddy because we love our daughter and she has been a good girl (and yes if she had been a right little terror she wouldn't be getting any) and that time of year we celebrate to keep our spirits up in the long winter days to follow.

3. Rudolf is not pulling the sleigh regardless of what people say, he's on the menu for Xmas day (we tend to have venison instead of beef if we can afford it).

4. The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are also not real.

Oh and before anyone asks my 2 favorite words at this time of year are Bah and Humbug.

Oooh - you can't say no. 3!! I still can't eat venison because I keep thinking of Bambi - my parent's fault for making the connection for me Yes, I eat most other things without a prick of conscience so yes, I'm a hypocrite.

I'm very interested in how you all intend stopping your non believing child(ren) from spoiling the magic for believers.

Ho ho ho SimonHoward I love No.3. Personally when your little girl looks up at you with her big eyes I don't believe you will be so cruel as to shatter her illusions of FC. Doing away with the Tooth Fairy you're not from Yorkshire are you trying to save a bit of money lol.

I was never told that FC brings the presents- M+D do that, but FC does bring the stockings,which only have silly little presents, satsumas, nuts, and a cracker in! I don't remember being heartbroken when I finally found out that FC didn't exist, because we still got the big presents! I was heartbroken, though, the first 3 years of our marriage, when dh failed completely to get the hint and arrange for a stocking for me. My Mum still gets one, my brother still gets one, dh got one and I didn't . Last year I showed dh the stocking and said "there's my stocking" and it got filled with the main present, so nothing under the tree! This year my mother is going to telephone him and remind him!

I don't believe for one minute that a big softy like you wouldn't get your daughter any presents if she had been a 'terror!

Soupdragon, I know how you feel about the whole Red Ted thing...I admit I was shattered when my then 5 yr old dd informed me her baby doll (who she has had since she was 2 and loves to bits) was "only pretend, you know". Sigh.

Oh and the Easter Bunny IS real. How else can you explain the bunny prints in the doorway and all those choccy eggs in the garden? Hmm?

Personally the tooth fairy freaks me out a bit though...what does she do with all those rancid little teeth anyway? And I think she has suffered with inflation too - we used to be happy with twenty cents under the pillow, now a molar is worth closer to $1 apparently...

Soupdragon
In answer to your last point about "believing children", sadly, if you choose to set your children up like this, the likelihood is that they will be disillusioned one day. After all, you don't presumably want them to believe all their lives! If a child comes home sobbing one day because he/she has been told that FC doesn't exist by another child, then the responsibility clearly lies with the parent who perpetuated the lie, rather than the child who innocently told the truth.

I can't see my children getting involved in this sort of discussion anyway, as they seem to accept FC on the same level as they accept the Tweenies or Bart Simpson. He is simply not especially relevant to them. Believing children are far more likely to be told by an ex-believing child who wants to share the experience of being disillusioned.

I think I gradually came round to the truth. But never mentioned the fact to my parents/younger sisters. However until the year I married (aged 25) I had to put up with my Dad "going to check he's been" before I was allowed downstairs. Will definitely go for it with DS when he gets to that age. Have already won the argument with DH about whether a 1 year old needs a stocking. "Whats the point if you're only putting a satsuma and a packet of raisins in - he has them everyday anyway?" - "because its fun".

Ah but sml, couldn't you also argue that, sadly, we are all going to be disappoionted in one way or another during our lives and that this is a gentle way of doing it? Like getting a pet and knowing it will die as a gentle way of introducing the concept of death to children.

I really can't imagine most children are damaged in any way by these things, a little upset maybe and disillusioned momentarily, but aren't a lot of things like that?

SML Goodness, and there was me thinking that I had injected some magic into my child's life with a harmless while lie. Glad you put me right on that one At the risk of being a pseud in the other direction, coming to terms with disapointment is all part of growing up. Better Dd has a trial run over something relativly unimportant, before she finds out just how awful some aspects of life can be.

Oh , and I tell her that I am going to live to be a very very old woman before I die, when she gets frightened and worried, and that could be a lie too, for all I know. How awful of me

This is embarrassing, but as a child I used to write letters to the fairies and make them dresses out of rose petals! My big sister would write reply letters. This went on until I was about nine, then my mum took me to one side and told me about them, the tooth fairy and Father Christmas in one huge sweep! I was absolutely devestated, in one foul blow she had taken away any magic my childhood had. I had wrapped myself up in this make-believe world, and to have it just fall apart was really crushing.

Now I won't feed my daughter stories about Father Christmas or fairies. If she wants to believe in some magic, then I won't take that away from her, but I won't embellish or confirm these stories, I will let her make her own mind up. For me anyway, Christmas is now much more than Santa and presents, it's about families and love and baby Jesus, and I would hope to convey those feelings to her.

FC is not a lie, he's a myth. Two entirely different things. I'm not "setting my children up" either.

In a way, FC is like a religeon for under 8's (age picked out of the air). A benevolent being who can't be seen that rewards the good and "punishes" the bad? Sounds like a religeous figure to me. (Can't do a smiley with toungue in cheek!)

I'm not criticising anyone's choice of whether to perpetuate the FC myth but you have to be tolerant and accepting of other people's "beliefs". Maybe we should teach our children that some believe in FC and some don't and that you shouldn't mock other people's beliefs. Taking this train of thought to it's very extreme (and I'm not equating a belief in FC with any of this really), you wouldn't expect a Christian child to tell, say, a Bhuddist one that their god doesn't really exist and that their religeon is a lie?

I'm not really expressing this well - I'm not making a serious connection between FC and deep held religeous beliefs but hopefully you get what I mean.

Rhubarb - with respect, I think your hurt may have come from the way your mother told you. I think most kids just work it out really. And yes, it is a bit like religion, as you get older you can see it more clearly.

Flowers out of rose petals, Rhubarb? That's just SO cute! You shouldn't be embarrassed about it (provided you don't do it any more )

And I agree, it's the way you were told that devastated you. I don't remember being told either that FC was real or that he wasn't. He was just part of Christmas until gradually (my elder brothers and) I stopped believing in him. My only upset was that a little of the magic disappeared although mum and dad continued to do the pillowcase/stocking thing until we were old enough to be coming in after they'd gone to bed on Christmas eve!

One other thing - my parents have very fond memories of perpetuating the FC myth. Memories of waiting for 3 excited, giggling children not going to sleep, memories of trying to sneak ridiculousy noisy toys into our rooms without us waking, memories of scoffing mince pies/drinking sherry/taking bites out of raw carrots (um... maybe not!) I guess he's not just for the children.

(Rhubarb, I used to build little houses out of mud and sticks... but don't tell anyone)

I so agree with Tinker and others about children hugely enjoying adults joining in on perpetuating things such as Father Christmas even when they suspect its all a myth. My mother held me entranced throughout much of my childhood with elaborate stories about the mythical creatures living in our garden. Most cultures around the world have a version of FC and like most things, it only survives because children want it to.

At the age of seven (I think) my stepdaughter very seriously asked my dh if santa was real (she'd obviously got fairly convinced he wasn't just to ask). DH carefully said that no, he was just a lovely story to make her happy. And she look thoughtful for a while, and then said, 'Well, I think I'll go on believing in him for a bit longer'! I think nearly all of us have this sort of 'I know really but don't want to spoil the fun' realisation. It's not a lie! Personally I think that's such an inappropriately strong word for such a lovely little game. Do you think that magic tricks are lies? Or when my dh and stepdaugher planned a whole day of surpriese for my birthday, including picnic and a restaurant booking but told me they were doing something different, was that a lie too. They had great fun plotting it all, and I had fun enjoying it. Sounds a lot like FC to me.

Soupdragon
you're telling a lie to perpetuate the myth though. I rather take issue with your comments on religion. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that Christianity is true, and Buddhism isn't? You can't compare the FC thing with religions because in a religious discussion, everybody is on a level playing field, ie all believe their religion is the best one, but no-one can offer the proof! In any talk between children on Father Christmas, however, it can easily be proved that he doesn't exist, that's why I say you have set your children up to be onto a loser.

However, I am glad from the comments made generally, that the Father Christmas believers seem to accept that finding out about FC is unimportant, therefore presumably you won't be blaming me if my children do tell yours the truth.

It is funny to me to hear you defending the "magic" of Father Christmas. I can assure you that my children's lives are full of magic, mostly concocted by themselves.

SML, if you read my posting carefully you'll see that I've not implied anything of the sort about Buddhism, the point was that you wouldn't expect someone to mock another person's beliefs. Personally I think Christianity is a myth but I wouldn't dream of telling my children that or be happy if they went and told an child that their beliefs were a load of rubbish, just as I wouldn't expect someone to tell me my beliefs are a load of rubbish. It's all a matter of respect. I'm not trying to start a serious discussion about the similaities of FC and religeon - something else I tried to make clear in my post. I don't equate someones deeply held belief in their god with a child's belief in Santa.

Yes, I can compare FC with religion in the tongue in cheek way I have - I even used that phrase if you read carefully. Both require a belief in something you can't see and with both there are believers and non believers who fight their corner passionately.

Finding out about FC may be unimportant but the way a child finds out is, as you can see if you read the posts carefully. The only people "traumatised" by finding out that mythological beings are not real are those few who were told nastily or in spite. Any who came to the conclusion themselves are happy about the whole thing. Therefore, yes, I would be extremely disappointed if my children were told in a nasty way. By anyone.

SML, surely your children can't have magic in their lives - there's no such thing as magic so therefore it's a lie... I hope that you ensure that the "magic" is based 100% in hard nosed facts and involves no flights of fancy that aren't swiftly squashed as being untrue

I really don't have a problem with those of you who aren't going to go down the FC route. You can sit on your side of the fence and I'll sit on mine. Just try to make sure that your children are taught to respect other people's beliefs and not to go round spoiling it for others.

I am not lying to my children. Lies are nasty and spiteful, FC is not.

Oh, let's not use the 'lie' word anymore. It really is inappropriate IMO. As I said, would you use it to describe magic tricks or telling someone they are going to a restaurant when really you've planned a special party etc? Lies are bad things, make-believe and fiction and secret surprises are quite different, and, whether you allow your children to participate or not, Father Christmas definitely falls into the latter categories.
It's better than harmless, it's benevolent.

Here's a dictionary definition: "lie, 2 n. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

v. lied, ly·ing, (lng) lies
v. intr. To present false information with the intention of deceiving. To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie"