'Be good and you'd get a present from santa' Anyone else feel this is wrong wrong wrong!

[tigermoth]

Over the years I admit I've have said to my son, only good children get presents from santa/me etc, but the more I think about it the worse this sentiment seems.

Do I really want my son to grow up believing that poor children are bad and rich children are good?
And the number of presents you get directly corresponds to how many brownie points you tot up? Is christmas just a reward ceremony?

And what sort of man is this santa anyway? If he's this jolly and generous chap, the spirit of christmas, would he really forget naughty children? And what sort of parent am I, that my generosity is conditional? What happened to unconditional love, that thing parents are meant to have?

I'm not saying do away with santa - I just think he's not meant to judge children.

Could you actually resist buying a particular present just because your child hadn't been good enough? I don't think I could do this. I'm all for reward systems, but isn't christmas a time to call a truce?

PS sml if you are reading this, I've a feeling this topic was touched on while back as part of anothe topic - sorry if this is going over old ground for you!

[GRMUM]

Mine have their stockings filled with small pressies from Santa and one big present under the tree.Any other presents are from family and friends.
We have a problem in that Santa visits Greek children on new years eve not christmas eve but I always got around that by telling them that he can't do all the world on one night so he spreads it out!!(and he knows we're English) As I have friends in Holland where St Nicholas comes on Dec.6 and German friends who open their presents Christmas eve my children have never had a problem with this.
I never threatened bad behaviour=no presents but he did always phone me about a week before Xmas to see how things had been this year.....One of my friends tells her children when they start questioning santas existence that if you believe in him he brings you presents ,if you don't your mum and dad will have to buy them for you instead.
In Greece because presents come at new year, Christmas is really a religeous festival only though that is changing and had become far more commercialised in the 17 years that I've been here.

[SoupDragon]

I was certainly never traumatised by being told Santa doesn't exist. Neither was my neice and she is happy to perpetuate the myth for her younger brother and my 2.

I'm sorry, but the only thing I've got to say to those of you who aren't going to go with the magical bits of Christmas : Bah humbug!

[missdilema]

Soupdragon I'm totally with you on this one.
When my ds told my dd ,who is 3rs younger than him that father xmas didn't exist I told him that he was right but we'd pretend he did for a while because dd is only little.He was ok about it.He'd seen that the wrapping paper was the same and worked it out for himself.
Anais I reckon your children are missing out on the magic and I bet they will feel like they've missed out when they grow up.Not everyone is upset when they find out the truth.

[tigermoth]

Hmm interesting.

My 8 year old must believe in santa still because he's written him a huge christmas list. Probably fears that if he says there's no santa, the stocking presents will stop

I think it's more than that, too. He wants to believe in it. Never asks how santa acquired the same wrapping paper he saw me buying. But this year I'm determined to use a secret stash of wrapping paper for the stockings.

Like tinker I felt uneasy about what to tell my son when we take a present to school to pass on to another child. I do what soupdragon suggested -tell him the family couldn't afford it. Don't want my ds to think santa picks and chooses his children.

[tigermoth]

Just another thing - I think the santa tradition is fine, but should be better preserved. I object to santas popping up everywhere you go in the run up to christmas. I think santas should have to pass a santa test - attitude, standard of dress, etc - to stop anyone dressing up as santa for cheap publicity and profit. A secret team of santa inspectors could keep an eye on things. Charities would be exempt, but anyone else caught dressing up as santa without passing the test should be liable to prosecution.

[Tinker]

I loved doing the carrots and mince pie etc for Father Christmas last year, makes me feel all tingly with excitement thinking about it now. For those who don't DO Father Christmas and/or have no Christian beliefs, what do you actaully do and why?

I certinly never felt betrayed or traumatised, just felt some of the magic had gone. I think it'll be me who will be traumatised when my daughter finds out!

[lou33]

I'm the same as Suedonim, santa has one present to give and the rest are from us, but santa gets the presents for us, and delivers them, although we get the wrapping paper for him. Getting complicated as they get older! My oldest is 11 next spring and still believes in Santa, the tooth fairy etc, and I'm really glad. There are too many children growing up way too fast it seems, and we are adults for so long, why not have a bit of fantasy and magic as a child?

[sml]

hello tigermoth -
I agree completely about threats, but then I'm not into perpetuating the father christmas myth anyway!

www
I got slated on mumsnet a couple of years ago for suggesting that father xmas is the same as lying !


I urge everyone, treat your children with respect this year - bin the santa myth and just put the presents in the stockings. I guarantee, they'll appreciate them just as much!

[SoupDragon]

I AM treating my children with respect. They are imaginative little beings and full of wonder at all the world has to offer and they deserve to be treated to a little "Magic" at least once a year. There's plenty of time for them to discover the harsh reality of the Real World.

Bah Humbug to the lot of you!

[SueDonim]

Hear hear, Soupdragon!

[willow2]

Yeah Soupdragon!

[bayleaf]

Tigermoth - I love the Santa qualification idea - especially as I've just seen an advert for one in our local paper small ads ( £5.50 and hour so less than cleaning around here!)
I hate it when they are badly dressed and you can see that they've got normal clothes on underneath or that the beard is obviously fake.
Dd is still too young to understand but when she does I'm going to be lying and hamming it up with the best of them I'm afraid - tho' tend to agree that the idea that only 'good' children get rewarded is to be avoided for as long as frayed tempers allow!

[candy]

I totally agree that Father Christmas DOES still exist. I can't ever remember being told HE DIDN'T! my seven year old was utterly convinced today when I told her that mummies and daddies can phone Father Christmas to discuss presents and also for him to arrange to collect any that have been bought by mummies and daddies to help him out. She thinks that when you go to hospital to have a baby, you are given Santa's phone number as an added bonus only available to grown ups who are parents. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Lambchops]

I really really hope that no-one can recognise me from this!
My husband looks just like Santa Claus (rotund, red cheeks,white beard). He told our neighbours' grandson that he was Santa. It came back to us from a different source that the little boy had told all his school mates that his granny and grandad lived next door to Santa Claus! Sweet!
We also got him dressed up as Hagrid at Hallowe'en along with DS and DD who were Harry potter and Hermoine! It was hilarious!
Long live magic!

[JayTree]

Spot on Soupdragon - I am a huge Santa fan and thoroughly believe in the importance of the magic and tradition of Christmas.
I know that there are some serious issues out there such as helping children understand about poverty, fairness, lying and myths etc. but come on guys ! For one day a year why not spread a little magic and extra special family love at Christmas?? There are loads of other days in the year for helping prepare our children for the cruel realities of life and burdening them with the cold truths of the world. Where is your your spark and imagination?? Use Christmas to focus on good old family fun and put aside all other worries. It is only for 24 hours after all...

As for lying about Santa? When the issue comes up use it as a chance to talk about what lies really are and about myths and how your child is gowing up - turn it into a positive thing. I was upset when i worked it out but my mum sat me down and made me feel really clever and grown up and not once did I feel they had lied to me - just use your parental common sense like you do for all other sticky conversations.
When I watch my child beaming as she sits on Santas knee in the grotto at church, open her stocking etc. etc. I will be thinking about all those children who are missing out... some who are unable to experience this type of joy through personal circumstances and some perhaps needlessly!! Those of you who deliberately miss out on some of these lovely traditions out of not wanting to lie, I think you are stopping your children having a little bit of magic! Stop intellectualising and analysing everything and have some fun!! (Don?t jump down my throat - I am not getting at you, that is meant as an honest but light hearted comment. If expressed badly, i apologise.)

[janh]

In our house Santa brought all the presents in the stocking - I still have very happy memories of our older kids, aged about 8, 5 and 2, or 9,6 and 3 oohing and aahing over what they'd got while we lay in the dark (5am probably!) listening, and then later they would come in and show us what he'd brought them - that was magical for all of us. (A lot of thought and effort went into the stocking presents and, after DD1 once commented on the wrapping paper, I kept one roll aside just for the stockings every year.)

Last year we were down to one semi-believer (aged 8) and it was quite difficult for us to be surprised at the contents of his stocking and, even more, not to say days later something about us giving him whatever it was, rather than Santa. I think he might have gone along with it one more time this year but the subject came up recently and I could tell by his face that he KNEW so I faced up to it!

Soupdragon et al, keep going with the magic as long as you can - there is a lot of joy in it (not to mention a quick mince pie and sherry at bedtime...)

[thumper]

I'm with you soupdragon!

[WideWebWitch]

Thanks for the warning sml! I agree with you, zebra and anais: deep down I don't think I should have told my ds about Santa. As I said earlier, so far I have gone along with it but that doesn?t mean I feel entirely comfortable with the whole thing.

I'm not sure I can go with the "if you don't tell your child about Father Christmas you are denying them magic and being cruel and mean". My ex Dh and his sister weren't told about Father Christmas because they're Hindu. They don't feel they were forced to face the harsh realities of life early as a result of this! I think that?s a bit strong! This applies to lots of people who don?t believe in/tell their kids about Santa. Not buying into the Santa myth doesn?t mean you?re a mean old mummy who denies your child/ren fun, a proper childhood and lovely days complete with presents, other family traditions and magical times. I do think we should protect our children from the really harsh realities of the world, of course, but I think ?Father Christmas doesn?t exist? isn?t a terribly harsh reality if you don?t start the whole thing to begin with.

Christmas can still be wonderful without Santa, and if people decide not to go for it, it doesn't necessarily mean they have no spark or imagination. IMO it's not burdening children with the harsh realities of the world to say "hey, here are loads of presents, but we bought them for you." True, other parents may not like you very much since your child will probably tell theirs so maybe we?re all worried about peer pressure too? Or we just don't very often consider bucking a tradition which seems harmless to many.

Isn?t it possible that we?ve all just bought into a myth that is perpetuated for commercial convenience? Christmas as we know it hasn?t been around for that long and Santa as we know him only since the 1800s. Thomas Nast and The Coca Cola Company are responsible for Santa in terms of looks anyway.

My view is that it is lying. He doesn't exist! And yet we tell our children that he exists and then have to admit, much later, that we lied. OK, maybe it isn't a traumatic thing for most kids when they find out, but we still lied. Hmm, interesting subject. Go on then everyone, lynch me

[willow2]

Don't care if he's commercial - he is real. I know because Raymond Briggs did a book about him. We read it every Christmas Eve. Along with the Christmas Story. Admittedly, once I hit 30 it did occur to me that I was getting a bit old for the stories. Fortunately then had a child as am now able to use him as a smokescreen.

[jasper]

Childhood without Santa?
You can't be serious.

[jasper]

Yesterday I was telling my 3yo all about Mary and Joseph and baby Jesus and he said "Is Joseph like Josie Jump? " (one of the characters in the BBc's new kiddies programme Balamory)

[ScummyMummy]

LOL, Jasper!

I think I always knew that father xmas was a figment of my parents imagination- they were always very "nudge nudge, wink wink" when referring to him and useless at hiding the fact that they were waiting in excited anticipation for us to go to bed so that they could play santa. I certainly never had a sudden disappointed realisation that he didn't exist or felt that my parents had lied to me. More a gradual confirmation that the father xmas story in our house was an excuse for my mum and dad to have a laugh while pleasing my sister and me immensely. I love planning my kids' stockings- it's my favourite bit of xmas- and think I'll probably follow my parents on this one ie: not lay it on too thick and treat the whole thing as a family in-joke.

[SoupDragon]

Hey! It seems Father Christmas is just as controversial as GF!

WWW, I'm no expert but I bet Hindus have their own "myths" which require the same suspended belief as Santa. Most countries have their own versions of this rooted in religeon or folklore.

It's not just Father Christmas I'm talking about anyway. I remember being taken to look for Wombles on Wimbledon Common because I'd asked repeatedly. Should my parents have sat me down and said "Look, there's no such thing. They're just a story on TV" or were they right to let me have a fun day out looking for them?

I certainly wouldn't want my children to be Anais' 7 year old Best Friend, telling believing children that he doesn't exist.

Also, I really, really think that "lie" is way too strong a word to use for this. Father Christmas is a myth/legend. He's not a lie.

I can hear those sleigh bells already....!

[SoupDragon]

ps Lambchops - don't suppose you live near Croydon do you - we need Santa for our Playgroup Christmas party!

[Lambchops]

Soupdragon, unfortunately no. I'm not telling you where we live in case we are recognised! But if we did live near Crodon he would have been delighted to do it, he does several every year and really enjoys hamming it up, hence the laugh at Hallowe'en, some of the kids really thought he was Hagrid!